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Post by Infinity Blade on Oct 1, 2021 19:42:14 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 17, 2021 20:35:35 GMT 5
I just learned that flat-headed temnospondyls like Gerrothorax opened their mouths by lifting their heads up (like a toilet seat) instead of lowering their jaws. I literally thought this was impossible among vertebrates. And apparently they're not even the only amphibians that do this. www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1671/0272-4634-28.4.935
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 23, 2021 6:13:43 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 30, 2021 0:27:24 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Dec 1, 2021 4:38:53 GMT 5
I highly recommend reading about this physical experiment on sabertooth jaws and teeth. According to it, scimitar-tooths bit down in line with the tooth axis when biting with the mandible; the mandible could then be released and the teeth could be drawn back and enlarge the wound. Dirk-tooths, however, carve through prey in a continuous arc and the force is perpendicular to the tooth axis; this produces a wound several times wider than the fore-and-aft width of the tooth and the trajectory allows the teeth to cut themselves out without needing to open the mouth. Scimitar-tooths could have a default bite using only their large incisor arcade if their specialized killing bite doesn't work on a particular prey item (like juvenile proboscideans), while dirk-tooths lacked an alternative or default bite to seriously wound prey unsuited to their killing bite. www.google.com/books/edition/The_Other_Saber_tooths/2GjhrKO9y74C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=experimental%20paleontology%20of%20the%20scimitar-tooth%20and%20dirk-tooth%20killing%20bites
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Post by Infinity Blade on Dec 29, 2021 23:46:33 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 11, 2022 21:00:36 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 23, 2022 0:31:17 GMT 5
It looks like spinosaurids had unusually high tooth replacement rates. Mateus & Estraviz-López (2022)Heckeburg & Rauhut (2020)Despite their specializations for piscivory, spinosaurids had some impressive aspects about their dentition. I can see how these things were able to go after medium-sized dinosaurs too (like the Baryonyx found with juvenile Iguanodon remains in its gut).
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 23, 2022 3:40:30 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 15, 2022 5:55:19 GMT 5
So, after learning about a bite force study on Zygophyseter, I couldn’t help but do quick and dirty calculations with them to get an idea of how hard Livyatan could bite. I basically scaled up Zygophyseter’s skull to the size of Livyatan’s to get some idea of Livyatan’s bite force. The formula is as follows: (( Livyatan skull length/ Zygophyseter skull length)^2)*bite force of Zygophyseter=bite force of LivyatanZygophyseter skull condylobasal length: 148 cm ( Peri et al., 2021) Livyatan skull condylobasal length: estimated 294 cm ( Lambert et al., 2017) Anterior bite force of Zygophyseter (35 degree gape): 4,812 N Posterior bite force of Zygophyseter (35 degree gape): 10,823 N Therefore: ((294 cm/148cm) 2)*10,823 N)= ~42,709 Newtons at the posterior end (294 cm/148 cm) 2)*4,812 N)= ~18,989 Newtons at the anterior end So, the elephant in the room: this bite force value seems woefully underwhelming. In fact, it seems very suspicious. And I agree that one of the caveats of this calculation involves using Zygophyseter as a base for Livyatan. Livyatan had a proportionately wider snout than Zygophyseter (this is obvious to anyone looking at top views of their skulls), and it wouldn't surprise me if it bit proportionally harder. Zygophyseter had a proportionally narrower snout than Basilosaurus, and this is believed to be one of the reasons why the former had a weaker bite. However, the other reason is that Basilosaurus also had a greater cross sectional area for the temporalis muscle than did Zygophyseter (Peri et al., 2021). I obviously can't quantify this, but from looks I don't know if I can say Livyatan had proportionately more area for jaw adductor muscles than Zygophyseter (compare these two images: Zygophyseter->, Livyatan->).
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 19, 2022 3:39:10 GMT 5
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Post by theropod on Jun 1, 2022 15:10:48 GMT 5
So, after learning about a bite force study on Zygophyseter, I couldn’t help but do quick and dirty calculations with them to get an idea of how hard Livyatan could bite. I basically scaled up Zygophyseter’s skull to the size of Livyatan’s to get some idea of Livyatan’s bite force. The formula is as follows: (( Livyatan skull length/ Zygophyseter skull length)^2)*bite force of Zygophyseter=bite force of LivyatanZygophyseter skull condylobasal length: 148 cm ( Peri et al., 2021) Livyatan skull condylobasal length: estimated 294 cm ( Lambert et al., 2017) Anterior bite force of Zygophyseter (35 degree gape): 4,812 N Posterior bite force of Zygophyseter (35 degree gape): 10,823 N Therefore: ((294 cm/148cm) 2)*10,823 N)= ~42,709 Newtons at the posterior end (294 cm/148 cm) 2)*4,812 N)= ~18,989 Newtons at the anterior end So, the elephant in the room: this bite force value seems woefully underwhelming. In fact, it seems very suspicious. And I agree that one of the caveats of this calculation involves using Zygophyseter as a base for Livyatan. Livyatan had a proportionately wider snout than Zygophyseter (this is obvious to anyone looking at top views of their skulls), and it wouldn't surprise me if it bit proportionally harder. Zygophyseter had a proportionally narrower snout than Basilosaurus, and this is believed to be one of the reasons why the former had a weaker bite. However, the other reason is that Basilosaurus also had a greater cross sectional area for the temporalis muscle than did Zygophyseter (Peri et al., 2021). I obviously can't quantify this, but from looks I don't know if I can say Livyatan had proportionately more area for jaw adductor muscles than Zygophyseter (compare these two images: Zygophyseter->, Livyatan->). I think we should be scaling from skull width, since we have it and it stands to reason that a longer skull at the same skull width would actually decrease rather than increase the bite forces, and since, as Snively et al. (2015) noted, skull width has a (considerably, see Fig. 4 of that study) better correlation with bite force than skull length does, at least for mammals. Bizygomatic width of Z. varolai is 74.5 cm, that of L. melvillei is 197 cm (Lambert et al. 2010, supplement). With Peri et al.’s bite force estimates, this gives us 33.647 and 75.678 kN for anterior and posterior biting positions respectively, figures that sound a lot more reasonable (considering the caveats inherent in the dry skull method) and more similar (still lower though) to what we get from Basilosaurus isis (Snively et al. 2015), though the anterior value I suspect may still be an underestimate, since relative to skull width the skull of Zygophyseter is 33% longer than that of Livyatan, which would likely mean it had a lower mechanical advantage at the snout tip. EDIT: just noticed, something I had been overlooking previously, that Snively et al. actually does give us the skull width of the B. isis specimen they worked on, albeit in log-transformed form: 10^1.785, or about 61 cm. Scaling from skull width of B. isis would thus give us a humungous 171.684 kN bite force estimate, while scaling from skull length resulted in the more modest 111.428 kN. For the posterior teeth, that is. Lambert, O., Bianucci, G., Post, K., de Muizon, C., Salas-Gismondi, R., Urbina, M. and Reumer, J. 2010. The giant bite of a new raptorial sperm whale from the Miocene epoch of Peru. Nature 466 (7302): 105. Peri, E., Falkingham, P.L., Collareta, A. and Bianucci, G. 2021. Biting in the Miocene seas: estimation of the bite force of the macroraptorial sperm whale Zygophyseter varolai using finite element analysis. Historical Biology: 1–12. Snively, E., Fahlke, J.M. and Welsh, R.C. 2015. Bone-breaking bite force of Basilosaurus isis (Mammalia, Cetacea) from the late Eocene of Egypt estimated by finite element analysis. PloS one 10 (2): e0118380.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 1, 2022 16:10:41 GMT 5
Does this at least seem reasonable? I can definitely see why scaling via skull width is a better way to scale bite force, just that “humongous” from your wording here makes me wonder if that’s something we should take at face value.
It’s still crazy that even posterior bite force for Livyatan calculated via scaling from skull width is still “only” within T. rex territory.
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Post by theropod on Jun 1, 2022 17:30:16 GMT 5
Probably not (or maybe at best when accounting for dry skull results being underestimates). Another basal physeteroid like Zygophyseter would definitely be a more reliable analogue than a more distantly related archaeocete. It was just for comparison's sake, and because I recall with previous attempts I only scaled using skull length because the width seemingly wasn't given (which I was mistaken about) in the paper.
Not really in T. rex territory though. Isn't the estimate for Sue with comparable (dry skull) methodology (McHenry 2009) something like 3 tons, i. e Livyatan would over twice as strong in relative terms? Currently on my phone, but I'll check later. EDIT: McHenry (p. 491, tab. 7-7) estimated Sue’s bite force at ~17 kN (anterior) to 26kN (posterior). I think the multibody dynamics simulation from Bates and Falkingham’s study clearly produces higher estimates, as they got figures around twice as high, even for a marginally smaller T. rex skull (that of Stan).
Bates, K.T. and Falkingham, P.L. 2012. Estimating maximum bite performance in Tyrannosaurus rex using multi-body dynamics. Biology Letters 8 (4): 660–664. McHenry, C.R. 2009. ‘Devourer of Gods’: The Palaeoecology of the Cretaceous Pliosaur Kronosaurus queenslandicus.University of Newcastle, 616pp.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 1, 2022 20:48:20 GMT 5
I was thinking about 3D bite force models for T. rex (especially one recent FEA that focused on juvenile tyrannosaurids). Peri et al.’s model incorporates the dry skull method and FEA, so I’m kind of on the fence on how meaningful a comparison between their data is.
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