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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 26, 2014 1:18:38 GMT 5
Do you place juvenile tigers from 2 to 3 years old in your tiger averages; or elderly tigers? ...I think not.
And... would you count boys from 11 to 15 years old in determining the size of the average man... or men from 65 to 95 ? Do you want a face-off between a healthy mature male grizzly... or with a cub or an old bear ? But, I can simply go with the average mature male grizzly 9+ years old. Any grizzly below 9 is not a fully mature bear. You can toss in the old bears if that floats your boat; shouldn't really change the numbers. The grizzly will win - always does. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 26, 2014 3:09:48 GMT 5
Err, yes, I’d place "elderly tigers" in "my tiger averages", all adult tigers for that matter, but obviously not juveniles. "Elderly" animals don’t grow or shrink. Of course body mass fluctuates throughout an animal’s adult life span, that’s just normal.
I don’t know how average human weights are usually calculated, but my guess is that they include a sample of adults (18+) at a given time, or fully grown humans (=whenever they reach osteological maturity+), not just people between 18 and some random upper bound. Of course depending on the individual health, which is also influenced by age, animals will vary in terms of size. That’s the reason we even use average figures after all.
If your premise implied only animals of a given age class, then why not say so in the opening post? In that case, I hope you’re using reliable equivalent age ranges for both animals, otherwise you can’t compare them objectively.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 26, 2014 3:55:20 GMT 5
Err, yes, I’d place "elderly tigers" in "my tiger averages", all adult tigers for that matter, but obviously not juveniles. "Elderly" animals don’t grow or shrink. Of course body mass fluctuates throughout an animal’s adult life span, that’s just normal. I don’t know how average human weights are usually calculated, but my guess is that they include a sample of adults (18+) at a given time, or fully grown humans (=whenever they reach osteological maturity+), not just people between 18 and some random upper bound. Of course depending on the individual health, which is also influenced by age, animals will vary in terms of size. That’s the reason we even use average figures after all. If your premise implied only animals of a given age class, then why not say so in the opening post? In that case, I hope you’re using reliable equivalent age ranges for both animals, otherwise you can’t compare them objectively.
If I'm not mistaken, a lion is mature at roughly 4 years old, and the grizzly at 9 years old. I didn't know that asking for mature animals in a face-off would stir up so much dirt. So, if we can get past that, I studied charts myself over at shaggygod.proboards.com/board/73/north-america and from what I saw the average mature male Yellowstone grizzly should weigh roughly 500 pounds.
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blaze
Paleo-artist 
Posts: 766
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Post by blaze on Nov 26, 2014 8:13:04 GMT 5
Well, excluding those bears (older than 15) from Blanchard's sample only increased the average by 4kg, about 2%, doesn't seem a significant difference.
No, lions are considered adults when they are 4 years old but they keep growing in body weight until they are 6 years old (Schaller 1972) and just like bears all surveys of adult body mass don't exclude bears younger than "fully mature", adults start at 4 years rather than 6 just like in bears they start at 5 rather than 9. Is not that asking for mature weights is a contentious issue but rather that you are comparing apples to oranges, big detailed surveys that let us selectively choose mature weights are probably nonexistent for lions but you have no qualms to use averages that include "juvenile" lions using your own logic... and in regards to that, don't go on calling bears in the 5-8 year old range juveniles, they are adults according to the people that study them.
Show us the chart that has 9+ year old male brown bears from Yellowstone averaging at 500lbs, the amount of bear body size surveys at Yellowstone probably can be counted by hand so it should not be that hard to find.
btw, what is your argument regarding this issues:
Bear body size surveys don't ever adjust for stomach content.
Bears have 2-3 times the body fat percentage of lions which means that at equal weights bears are dimensionally smaller (except in belly girth) and have leaser lean mass.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 26, 2014 15:53:24 GMT 5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/671/grizzly-bear-anatomy
Blanchard (in press) found that in Yellowstone National Park, male grizzlies were consistently heavier than females for all age classes except cubs and yearlings. Sexual dimorphism beginning at age 2 was also apparent in other study areas (Troyer and Hensel 1969, Pearson 1975). Males in Yellowstone steadily gained weight until at least 15 years, but the mean annual rate of weight increase for males aged 4-15 (5.6%) was much less than the rate for cubs through 3 years (42.1%). The mean weight of adult males was 29% greater than for females and body measurements were 8-17% greater. Males attained full size in 7 of 11 body measurements by age 6 and in all 11 by age 9.
Now, what is your problem with a fully mature 500 pound male grizzly vs a fully mature 400 pound male lion? Yellowstone is a place of awesome beauty, but it is a harsh environment. At times, the grizzly is primarily feeding on pine nuts and cut-worm moths. I could have chosen the Alaskan peninsula grizzly instead.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 26, 2014 20:56:45 GMT 5
To give my opinion on the fight, the bear would win this according to the given conditions because I believe that this is a close match at parity and the bear has the advantages it needs when it has a size advantage.
Now a question to the community:
What do you think of fights with special conditions? Taipan normally moves them in the fantasy zone, but I'd prefer keeping them here, to prevent massive abuse of the fantasy zone.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 26, 2014 22:40:38 GMT 5
What special conditions? A fully mature male Yellowsone grizzly vs a fully mature male African lion.
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Post by theropod on Nov 26, 2014 23:01:36 GMT 5
You actually took the freedom of predetermining the weights you want to take. Usually it’s not the member who makes the topic who gets to decide about those, it’s a matter of discussion. And you didn’t take fully mature grizzlies and fully mature lions, you took grizzlies between 9 and 15 years of age.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 26, 2014 23:13:46 GMT 5
OK, a grizzly is not fully mature until age 9. Once a grizzly becomes an elderly bear, he begins to lose muscle-mass. He will lose weight because he will not be able to fight for good food resources, such as a good fishing spot or for a carcass. There would be more older bears around than older lions, because a lion must hunt and kill to survive. And, fight other lions to stay with a pride.
But, I have no problem disregarding the older bear issue. Now, in a face-off, I doubt that you would wish to pit a sub-adult lion against a fully mature grizzly... ?
You tell me; what is the weight of each ( fully mature ) in your opinion?
There are also more sub-adult grizzlies than lions; simply because, like most animals born in litters, a lion matures must faster.
But, this is not rocket-science... a fully mature male grizzly against a fully mature male lion... you give the weights.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 27, 2014 1:59:07 GMT 5
Usually it’s not the member who makes the topic who gets to decide about those, it’s a matter of discussion. If people predetermine the sizes, they take away 80% of the matter worth discussing.  *irony off*I would say 440 pounds for the bear and 400-420 pounds for the lion. This makes it closer than with the given weights, but I still give the bear an edge. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 27, 2014 3:03:08 GMT 5
That actually comes quite close to the truth. Case in point: People continue discussing the sizes, even if someone has already specified them.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 27, 2014 4:25:11 GMT 5
440 pound ( summer weight ) grizzly vs a huge 420 pound lion pride leader... one on one.  wildfact.com/forum/forum-big-cats shaggygod.proboards.com/
As can be found on given site above, you are right on the money with the average mature male lion's weight. But, the weight of the grizzly includes, according to Blaze, juvenile 5 year old bears, hardly more than cubs. As can be seen from the development chart, a long way from maturity. But that's alright. I'll play by the "rules of this site." 420 pound prime male lion vs a 440 pound grizzly - nearing maturity. I'd still bet on the grizzly in a one-on-one. Against a pride or a coalition, the lion rules.
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Post by mechafire on Nov 28, 2014 8:14:35 GMT 5
If the weights are that close, I'm backing the lion.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 28, 2014 8:58:58 GMT 5
With these two predators at pretty much weight parity, we have a rather small grizzly. Never-the-less, I'd bet on the bear. Usually, when a grizzly kills some large herbivore, he does so in a face-to-face struggle, such as a caribou or domestic cattle. The lion, like all big cats, is a specialized ambush predator. Of course, the only encounters that we have on record are of captive animals. The lion killed a grizzly only once, that I have thus far read, and that was actually accomplished in an unexpected ambush. Here is a brief summery:
shaggygod.proboards.com/board/38/felidae Milwaukee Journal, Sept.13, 1966... American black bear kills a lion in the Ringling Bros. Circus in Florida. Berlin circus... a bear kills a lion ( bear species not specified ). The New York Times, July 18, 1906... a grizzly named President was mistakenly sent through a narrow passageway from one end, while a lion named Menelik was sent through at the other end. The two animals, well acquainted with each other, met in the middle in a tight corner. The lion unexpectedly grabbed the bear by the throat. The grizzly soon died from the horrible wound. Bostock's Jungle Nottingham, Jan.30, 1912... a grizzly kills a lion with a bite to the spine. 1843... a black bear from Kentucky defeats a lioness. Chicago Tribune, Dec.16, 1935... in a brief encounter, a lion named Leo enters the cage of a bear named Bruin. The bear ( species not specified ) knocked the lion out. Paris, Masserini's menagerie... bear ( species not specified ) kills a lion. "Circus Day" by Courtney Ryley Cooper ( page 52 )... in a face-off on a San Francisco barge, a grizzly kills a lion. The most famous lion vs grizzly fight ever is, of course, Parnell the man-killer vs Ramadam the California grizzly
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Post by mechafire on Nov 28, 2014 10:17:15 GMT 5
With these two predators at pretty much weight parity, we have a rather small grizzly. Never-the-less, I'd bet on the bear. Usually, when a grizzly kills some large herbivore, he does so in a face-to-face struggle, such as a caribou or domestic cattle. The lion, like all big cats, is a specialized ambush predator. Of course, the only encounters that we have on record are of captive animals. The lion killed a grizzly only once, that I have thus far read, and that was actually accomplished in an unexpected ambush. Here is a brief summery:
shaggygod.proboards.com/board/38/felidae Milwaukee Journal, Sept.13, 1966... American black bear kills a lion in the Ringling Bros. Circus in Florida. Berlin circus... a bear kills a lion ( bear species not specified ). The New York Times, July 18, 1906... a grizzly named President was mistakenly sent through a narrow passageway from one end, while a lion named Menelik was sent through at the other end. The two animals, well acquainted with each other, met in the middle in a tight corner. The lion unexpectedly grabbed the bear by the throat. The grizzly soon died from the horrible wound. Bostock's Jungle Nottingham, Jan.30, 1912... a grizzly kills a lion with a bite to the spine. 1843... a black bear from Kentucky defeats a lioness. Chicago Tribune, Dec.16, 1935... in a brief encounter, a lion named Leo enters the cage of a bear named Bruin. The bear ( species not specified ) knocked the lion out. Paris, Masserini's menagerie... bear ( species not specified ) kills a lion. "Circus Day" by Courtney Ryley Cooper ( page 52 )... in a face-off on a San Francisco barge, a grizzly kills a lion. The most famous lion vs grizzly fight ever is, of course, Parnell the man-killer vs Ramadam the California grizzly I don't think it's accurate to say a captive lion has beaten a bear only once. The more accurate conclusion would be that that the users of that site can find more accounts of captive bears beating captive lions than of lions beating bears. But I can kind of see what you're getting at. Anyway, Most of those records don't tend to specify the weights of the animals. Which is kind of problematic if you want to use them as evidence for the bear in a hypothetical match up with specified weights for both animals. |
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