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Post by theropod on Jul 30, 2016 19:00:15 GMT 5
There is a difference between "a long, loud and deep sound" and "any long, loud, deep sound", is there not? Of course some dinosaurs almost certainly made long, deep and loud sounds. As do cattle. As do crocodiles. Sure, one can refer to those animals’ sounds as a roar, just as one can refer to a jet engine as roaring. Roars are long, loud and deep, does that make every single long, loud and deep sound ever produced by any animal a roar? For starters, I don’t think that’s what anyone was referring to, considering grey used "heavy croc-like sounds" to contrast with roaring in the first place, and since this category is so broad it’s literally completely meaningless. However a sensible zoological definition, which comes a lot closer to what I think of when discussing roars produced by animals is the particular sound emitted by the particular laryngeal structure of big cats (see here: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-7580.2002.00088.x/full), the "carnivoran-type roar" if you like that expression better.
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Post by Grey on Jul 30, 2016 21:24:28 GMT 5
That's what I suggest, I don't envision a large theropod roaring like a mammal, but a dinosaurian equivalent of roaring, occuring during the 160 millions years of evolution of this clade, doesn't sound far fetched to me. On a scientific ground though, I'm inclined to rather follow the current depiction from Saurian.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 30, 2016 23:37:51 GMT 5
That's what I believe. If we go by that definition then no non-big cat could roar, even if the animal in question could produce sounds identical to the roar of a big cat (which I'm not even suggesting for dinosaurs btw; in fact I find that ridiculously unlikely). That's because you're saying that it has to be emitted by the laryngeal structures of some arbitrary taxa within a particular family of animals (id est, felids that can be considered "big cats"). It's kind of like the definition of carnassial (or at least how some define it); it can look and function like a carnassial all it wants, but if it's not from a carnivoran and/or mammal, it can never be one.
In a way I don't have a problem with this definition. But there's probably a really large number of possible sounds that could very well be considered to be roars or roar-like if we heard them (big cat roars and the dinosaur roars we hear in films and television programs are just some among many of them). If dinosaurs produced any one of these possible sounds, would you, then, think that the aforementioned definition of roar may be too conservative?
I hope that what I'm saying here is understandable, especially the latter part.
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Post by theropod on Jul 31, 2016 1:43:09 GMT 5
Sorry, bad wording. The roar is only the sound. I really don’t care how it is made as long as it sounds similar to the roars big cats make. I’m trying to find some sort of definiton that actually fits what people are talking about, that’s all.
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Cross
Junior Member
The biggest geek this side of the galaxy. Avatar is Dakotaraptor steini from Saurian.
Posts: 266
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Post by Cross on Aug 11, 2016 8:49:25 GMT 5
There doesn't appear to be a strict biological definition for what a roar is. There is only an English definition, and as theropod and @brolyeuphyfusion mentioned, the English definition simply states that a roar is a long, low-pitched, aggressive, usually bioacoustic sound. The definition has nothing to do with how the sound is generated. The definition for it it so ambiguous that it's pretty much synonymous with "Growl". And speaking of growling, lots of extant archosauriforms like crocodylians and ratites can growl and make bellowing noises. I'd guess that body size would affect pitch as well, and imagining a bird squawk if it were low pitched and louder would actually sound a lot like a roar to me. I think the problem stems from the fact that people often use mammals as a comparison rather than actual archosaurs. If growling/roar-ish (but not mammalian roaring) sounds can be made by both avialans and pseudosuchians then I don't see why non-avian dinosaurs couldn't have generated the same bioacoustic sounds as their extant relatives. What sound would you call the ones that the birds and crocs in the videos are making?
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Post by jhg on Mar 11, 2017 3:44:12 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 15, 2023 23:36:28 GMT 5
A Pinacosaurus specimen with a preserved larynx shows evidence of bird-like vocalizations. So all this “dinosaurs were limited to croc/lizard noises” or “dinosaurs couldn’t vocalize” stuff goes straight out the window. Something I suspected this entire time. Syrinx shmyrinx. www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04513-x
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