Shantungosaurus giganteus vs Palaeoloxodon namadicus

[denis]

Shantungosaurus giganteus:
Length: 16 meters, however likely up to 18 meters since Huaxiaosaurus is now accepted to be Shantungosaurus.
Weight: ~16 tonnes (Horner et al., 2005)
Height: 4 meters (On all fours), 6 meters (On two legs).
Diet: Plants.
Predators: Zhuchengtyrannus.

Palaeoloxodon namadicus:
Length: 7 meters (Including tusks)
Weight: ~22 tonnes(?) (based on distal femur fragment from 1834; Larramendi, 2016)
Height: 5.2 meters
Diet: Plants.
Predators: Big cats, like tigers and lions, and also humans.

[dinosauria101]

I think the dinosaur has a fair chance here. It can achieve similar masses (180 cm femur IIRC) and is not as weaponless as it may seem; hadrosaurs would have very powerful kicks, as well as a keratin sheath over their beaks that would act as a cropper. Not sure who to favor more often than not but I could see the dino winning at times

[denis]

Nov 29, 2019 2:28:02 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

I think the dinosaur has a fair chance here. It can achieve similar masses (180 cm femur IIRC) and is not as weaponless as it may seem; hadrosaurs would have very powerful kicks, as well as a keratin sheath over their beaks that would act as a cropper. Not sure who to favor more often than not but I could see the dino winning at times

But it’s important to note that Shantungosaurus had more fighting experience 

[dinosauria101]

Possibly - these elephants don't have much outside their own kind

[6f5e4d]

Shantungosaurus might be somewhat heavier, and those jaws are somewhat stronger and more effective in combat, compared to the tusks on Palaeoloxodon namadicus, so this hadrosaur can defeat the elephant for sure.

[Infinity Blade]

Even if Shantungosaurus weighs as much as the elephant (OP gives no solid citation for it surpassing 20t), I still think the elephant will be better armed. Make no mistake, I'm not saying the hadrosaur is weaponless. Hell, I dare say that at similar weights, this isn't actually so one-sided, "hurr durr tEh HaDrOsAuR iS wEApOnLeSs" notwithstanding. A backwards directed kick from one hindlimb would be no joke, and even if it couldn't raise its hindleg far enough to kick the elephant's higher body parts, it would still be a viable option for the hadrosaur to keep its massive beefy tail facing the elephant at all times and battering it with it. All that said, I'd probably still rate a piercing weapon over a plain (albeit enormous) tail and hindlimb kicks relying on blunt trauma.

[denis]

Nov 29, 2019 8:11:36 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Even if Shantungosaurus weighs as much as the elephant (OP gives no solid citation for it surpassing 20t), I still think the elephant will be better armed. Make no mistake, I'm not saying the hadrosaur is weaponless. Hell, I'll even go as far as to say that at similar weights, maybe this isn't so one-sided after all (even if the hadrosaur couldn't raise a hindleg high enough to kick the elephant's cranial region, there could be scenarios where it could keep the elephant facing its massive tail and batter it with it). I'll still rate a piercing weapon over a plain (albeit enormous) tail and hindlimb kicks relying on blunt trauma, though.

Not to mention, it did have a very power beak. Also here’s the size comparison of Hadrosaurs:
Huaxiaosaurus size estimate isn’t included for Shantungosaurus, what I mean is, I heard that Huaxiaosaurus is 18.1 meters long.

[Infinity Blade]

Nov 29, 2019 23:15:27 GMT 5 denis said:

Nov 29, 2019 8:11:36 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Even if Shantungosaurus weighs as much as the elephant (OP gives no solid citation for it surpassing 20t), I still think the elephant will be better armed. Make no mistake, I'm not saying the hadrosaur is weaponless. Hell, I'll even go as far as to say that at similar weights, maybe this isn't so one-sided after all (even if the hadrosaur couldn't raise a hindleg high enough to kick the elephant's cranial region, there could be scenarios where it could keep the elephant facing its massive tail and batter it with it). I'll still rate a piercing weapon over a plain (albeit enormous) tail and hindlimb kicks relying on blunt trauma, though.

Not to mention, it did have a very power beak. Also here’s the size comparison of Hadrosaurs:
Huaxiaosaurus size estimate isn’t included for Shantungosaurus, what I mean is, I heard that Huaxiaosaurus is 18.1 meters long.

Is that one of SpinoInWonderland's comparisons?

[denis]

Nov 29, 2019 23:48:03 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Nov 29, 2019 23:15:27 GMT 5 denis said:

Not to mention, it did have a very power beak. Also here’s the size comparison of Hadrosaurs:
Huaxiaosaurus size estimate isn’t included for Shantungosaurus, what I mean is, I heard that Huaxiaosaurus is 18.1 meters long.

Is that one of SpinoInWonderland's comparisons?

Yeah why?

[Infinity Blade]

How old is it? Does he have any new updates on the size of Shantungosaurus?

[denis]

It was made in 2016, but I don’t know if he updated it.

[Infinity Blade]

Okay, I searched around a little and I found this.

Body mass estimates based on humeral and femoral circumference suggest most hadrosaurids fall within the 2 to 5 tonne range. Basal taxa such as Probactrosaurus and Bactrosaurus are generally considerably smaller (1 to 2 tonne range). Two taxa are notable for their huge body size. Estimates indicate a 12 – 20 tonne range for Shantungosaurus and an 11 – 19 tonne range for Iguanodon. These estimates are higher than that observed in the diplodocid Diplodocus (7 – 13 tonnes) based on limb circumference.

www.tyrrellmuseum.com/media/HadrSymp2011Abstract.pdf

I know these are estimates based off of limb circumference, which may or may not yield the most accurate results (the Iguanodon mass estimate detached my lower jaw at first sight), but the size range here seems consistent with estimates I've seen. It's consistent with Wikipedia's 16t, and the upper end is close to 22t.

However, even if we decide to be generous the elephant would, if anything, be a bit bigger (10% bigger) and would, if anything, have the more impressive armament.

[denis]

I think Iguanodon is probably overestimated.

[Infinity Blade]

I'm going to update this thread with some information regarding Shantungosaurus' size. SpinoInWonderland (whose work has previously been shown in this thread) provided me with an updated GDI of the specimen formerly called "Zhuchengosaurus", having told me that the ~22 tonne estimate shown above has big errors.



If we go by this GDI, we can gather a couple things from it:

1.) The elephant should be about a third heavier. The "Zhuchengosaurus" specimen is really more ~16.5 tonnes and a little <14 meters long. This is consistent with the figure Wikipedia cites, and roughly consistent with the size estimation range I showed above.

2.) Shantungosaurus' tail weighs almost 4 tonnes according to this. That should be more than massive enough for a blow to be seriously damaging to the head of even a Palaeoloxodon, certainly so if it weighed as much as the hadrosaur (I doubt any proboscidean's head amassed ~4 tonnes in life). It's also well over 7 meters in length, which gives it substantial reach too.

As for the topic, the proboscidean's size and tusks should make it the favorite. But a weaponless mountain of meat Shantungosaurus is not.

[dinosauria101]

Infinity Blade, this might be helpful for the topic: www.deviantart.com/spinoinwonderland/journal/Some-more-GDI-s-again-2-708079280?comment=1%3A708079280%3A4482330239
That specimen you posted doesn't seem to be the biggest; the largest with a 180.5 cm femur is ~22-22.5 tonnes.

Undecided on who wins at parity, but I think both have a fair chance (in addition to very strong kicking and tail slapping, I remember you pointing out in the Parasaurolophus vs Corythosaurus thread that hadrosaurs would have had a sharp, horny sheath around their mouths and it would probably be able to do some serious damage to whatever it bit, probably not dissimilar to the jaws of carcharodontosaurids, sharks, or Dunkleosteus).