Post by Infinity Blade on Jan 30, 2024 20:26:23 GMT 5
I'm currently busy with moving out and grad school work, so I may not be able to sustain this discussion consistently, but I will do what I can.
Note that Jim Kirkland has told me on twitter that the skull in Scott Hartman's skeletal is a little bit too long and implied that the Rob Gaston mount is better in that aspect. Granted, all Utahraptor skull recons are based on a box of scraps and said scraps come from several different animals of varying sizes and possibly uncertain identification...
Both are based on newer material on Utahraptor not known previously. I don't know how much longer Kirkland thinks Hartman's skull is than reality, but I doubt either is terribly off. I also am not sure how much I should trust a skeleton mount since, as Scott Hartman himself once said, all dinosaur skeleton mounts have at least something wrong with them.
But, like I said, I don't think either is terribly off, and either way, Utahraptor should have had a massive skull for its size, like pretty much any dromaeosaurid.
It does come from Greg Paul (from his 1988 Predatory Dinosaurs of the World) and it is scaled to MCZ 4371, but even back then he knew Deinonychus didn't just have some scaled up elongated Velociraptor skull. This is from p. 368 of his book.
Looking at his artwork of Deinonychus at the time, it's clear he didn't think it was especially short skulled or anything, but at the same time, he didn't just extrapolate 1:1 from Velociraptor either. He knew it was more robust skulled and accounted for this in this estimates.
Greg Paul's skull length estimate for YPM 5232 was 33.2 cm, which is very similar to that ~32 cm from Powers' more recent reconstruction. I do believe that the latter's reconstruction is probably closer to the real Deinonychus' skull shape than previous ones, so if both his and Paul's estimates for skull length are actually pretty similar, I'm sure it will extend to MCZ 4371.
This size comparison was actually made by one of our former members (blaze). I actually requested it long ago on Carnivora forum, and blaze created it for me. I'm actually quite surprised by how much it made the rounds across the Internet.
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This one is notably more short snouted than most preceding recons, especially the velociraptorine ones, which would most likely make the 41cm estimate an overestimate. This skull reconstruction by Powers is around 32 cm and scaled to the maxilla from YPM 5232 which as far as I can tell has no size estimate which makes sense given that it is only cranial material. I've quickly thrown together a comparison below with spotted hyena, jaguar and komodo dragon but with the Deinonychus skull scaled to YPM 5210 using the diagram of the jugal from the original description of Deinonychus (Ostrom 1969) (included in the comparison so you guys can check my work if you're so inclined).
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I haven't really done a size comparison or proper skeletal scaling before so please critique the hell out of this.
Just a little curious why you used a jaguar for this one. I can't check for accuracy because I can't make a good size comparison.
You're posting them as attachments (so clicking those images opens another tab that gives you a larger view of the image). To post them as larger images, it helps to post them first on an image hosting site (I use ImgBB) and then post the link to the whole image on here. From there you can adjust size where it has the 100% down to 90%, 60%, whichever is needed.
Both are based on newer material on Utahraptor not known previously. I don't know how much longer Kirkland thinks Hartman's skull is than reality, but I doubt either is terribly off. I also am not sure how much I should trust a skeleton mount since, as Scott Hartman himself once said, all dinosaur skeleton mounts have at least something wrong with them.
But, like I said, I don't think either is terribly off, and either way, Utahraptor should have had a massive skull for its size, like pretty much any dromaeosaurid.
I think the Deinonychus skull here is meant to be 41cm and scaled to MCZ 4371. Outside of this image, I've also seen the 41cm number brought up elsewhere. The problem is that, as far as I can tell from a cursory look through Wikipedia, this number comes from GSP, and I'm not sure whether this was also when he lumped Deinonychus into Velociraptor and reconstructed it with an elongated Velociraptorine skull.
It does come from Greg Paul (from his 1988 Predatory Dinosaurs of the World) and it is scaled to MCZ 4371, but even back then he knew Deinonychus didn't just have some scaled up elongated Velociraptor skull. This is from p. 368 of his book.
Looking at his artwork of Deinonychus at the time, it's clear he didn't think it was especially short skulled or anything, but at the same time, he didn't just extrapolate 1:1 from Velociraptor either. He knew it was more robust skulled and accounted for this in this estimates.
This one is notably more short snouted than most preceding recons, especially the velociraptorine ones, which would most likely make the 41cm estimate an overestimate. This skull reconstruction by Powers is around 32 cm and scaled to the maxilla from YPM 5232 which as far as I can tell has no size estimate which makes sense given that it is only cranial material.
Greg Paul's skull length estimate for YPM 5232 was 33.2 cm, which is very similar to that ~32 cm from Powers' more recent reconstruction. I do believe that the latter's reconstruction is probably closer to the real Deinonychus' skull shape than previous ones, so if both his and Paul's estimates for skull length are actually pretty similar, I'm sure it will extend to MCZ 4371.
Also, hi everyone, this is my first post here! I'm gonna quickly follow up this Eudromaeosaur skull comparison with another one, this one between D. antirrhopus and C. lupus, P. pardus and C. crocuta that I've seen float around either this and similar forums:
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I think the Deinonychus skull here is meant to be 41cm and scaled to MCZ 4371. Outside of this image, I've also seen the 41cm number brought up elsewhere. The problem is that, as far as I can tell from a cursory look through Wikipedia, this number comes from GSP, and I'm not sure whether this was also when he lumped Deinonychus into Velociraptor and reconstructed it with an elongated Velociraptorine skull. Another anomaly with this image specifically in that it doesn't seem to resemble any of the common skull reconstructions, like the triangular one (from John Ostrom himself, I think?) or the rectangular one ala Scott Hartman. Regardless, all of those skull reconstructions are now outdated and I believe the most up to date one is from (Powers 2020):
Attachment Deleted
I think the Deinonychus skull here is meant to be 41cm and scaled to MCZ 4371. Outside of this image, I've also seen the 41cm number brought up elsewhere. The problem is that, as far as I can tell from a cursory look through Wikipedia, this number comes from GSP, and I'm not sure whether this was also when he lumped Deinonychus into Velociraptor and reconstructed it with an elongated Velociraptorine skull. Another anomaly with this image specifically in that it doesn't seem to resemble any of the common skull reconstructions, like the triangular one (from John Ostrom himself, I think?) or the rectangular one ala Scott Hartman. Regardless, all of those skull reconstructions are now outdated and I believe the most up to date one is from (Powers 2020):
This size comparison was actually made by one of our former members (blaze). I actually requested it long ago on Carnivora forum, and blaze created it for me. I'm actually quite surprised by how much it made the rounds across the Internet.
This one is notably more short snouted than most preceding recons, especially the velociraptorine ones, which would most likely make the 41cm estimate an overestimate. This skull reconstruction by Powers is around 32 cm and scaled to the maxilla from YPM 5232 which as far as I can tell has no size estimate which makes sense given that it is only cranial material. I've quickly thrown together a comparison below with spotted hyena, jaguar and komodo dragon but with the Deinonychus skull scaled to YPM 5210 using the diagram of the jugal from the original description of Deinonychus (Ostrom 1969) (included in the comparison so you guys can check my work if you're so inclined).
Attachment Deleted
Just a little curious why you used a jaguar for this one. I can't check for accuracy because I can't make a good size comparison.
Lmao, idk why the images came out so small and compressed, still new here, I'm sure I'll figure it out.
You're posting them as attachments (so clicking those images opens another tab that gives you a larger view of the image). To post them as larger images, it helps to post them first on an image hosting site (I use ImgBB) and then post the link to the whole image on here. From there you can adjust size where it has the 100% down to 90%, 60%, whichever is needed.
(r+mb%20id@1024).jpg)
