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Post by Supercommunist on Apr 26, 2014 0:19:21 GMT 5
^IMO that applies more to real life animals, who spend their life preying/fighting off other animals, but to each his own.
But assuming you are correct, the lizard is on par with the wolf as far as brain power is concerned.
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 2:38:49 GMT 5
The video is fascinating!!! It is incredible what this particular lizard can make. However, you most accept a few facts: 1. This is a captive animal, trained to do things. 2. He mentions that this goals are remarkable and even extraordinary for a reptile. 3. Komodo dragons are a different species (although closely related) than the African monitor lizard. It is important to mention that the Doctor believe that monitor lizards are the "primates" in the world of reptiles. I believed that crocodiles were smarter, but acording with him, it seems not. Obviously, wild behavior will be influenced by the circumstances, but even then, wolves have show a way higher degree of intelligence than the Komodo dragon. Check this article: "Wolf intelligence is a fascinating topic. When wolves hunt, their behavior indicates that a great deal of forethought and problem solving ability is involved. For example, they use social cooperation to conduct and perhaps “plan” coordinated attacks. When running into a herd of prey, they continuously test the animals and make decisions on which single animal they eventually will kill. They test them by smell, scattering the herd and looking for weaknesses, and sometimes by waiting. After scattering a herd, wolves may stand and watch their prey, waiting for a weak individual to reveal itself. Once a lone animal is selected, the wolves may chase it only so far.
During this pursuit, the wolves must decide to either continue their attack or call if off. Their decision is based on many factors. Does the animal turn and fight? Is there an apparent weakness such as injury or illness? They must also judge the degree of danger involved. Is there risk of injury? Is it worth the risk? A hungry wolf may decide that it is. A wolf’s life, however, is a hard one. Food is not always available and perhaps great risks are taken often to obtain it. Apparently, these are calculated risks. Unnecessary confrontations are usually avoided. An injury in the wild can be the same as death - it just takes longer. Wolves, therefore, need to be good problem solvers and have the ability to anticipate many dangerous situations.
In other words, generalized rules can keep wolves out of trouble. For example, not every hunt is exactly the same as any other, but they do have common factors (i.e., the prey’s behavior) that the wolves can use for predicting certain situations. But what are generalized rules and why are they so important? Virtually all mammalian species learn in this way, including humans. Although there are few studies on wolf intelligence, dolphin research has provided us with a great deal of information regarding how mammals learn."
Source: www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/learningsets.php As we can see, wolves are great problem solvers and they ability is not limited to just asking for food or counting to “six”.   |
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 3:04:28 GMT 5
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 3:22:21 GMT 5
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Post by Supercommunist on Apr 26, 2014 4:10:44 GMT 5
If you want to watch the full documentary I think its on youtube, it called Nova Lizard King, or something along those lines. True, but its likely a wild specimen would simply apply its high cognitive function to preform other tasks. He also mentions that the monitor also outpreformed many mammals. Also it is worth noting that reptile intelligence is often underestimed by researchers. Captive komodos are almost dog like in behavior, and I read a book claiming that two especially tame ones have been trained to allow children to ride on their back. I'd say it would have a similar level intelligence as the lizard in the video, if not higher. Well recently there has been research showing that crocodiles posses very good memories, and are able to utulize traps when preying on birds, so I'd say crocodiles and monitors are around the same level. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131204182433.htmWhile that shows wolves are intelligent, which I was already aware of, it doesn't prove its intelligence is superior to komodo dragons. As wolves are pack hunters its easy to observe their ingeunuity while hunting. On the otherhand komodos have evolved to either kill their prey in extremely quick takedowns, or simple hit and run tactics, and aren't able to demonstrate it as much. |
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 11:33:02 GMT 5
Oh yes, I want to see that documentary.  About the wild/captive issue, yes, the lizard can use them abilities in the wild, but probably not at the same level than in the lab. The same goes to wolves obviously, but been a high evolved mammal, it will need more of the intelligence than the monitor itself, IMO. Yes, the Dr mentions that the monitor had better intelligence than “many” mammals; however he don’t specify which mammals. Probably a domestic cow or some bats species, but surely not a primate, a cetacean of a canid (like the wolf). About the Komodo allowing kids in its back, I will take that like a grain of salt, don't misunderstand me, I believe in you, what I "more or less" believe is in the book. However, I have saw pythons (not reticulated ones, obviously) with kids; even I have taken two pictures of myself with two large snakes, one with a white Burmese python and other with an Indian python of normal color. On the comparison with crocodiles, it is possibly correct. Like I said to you, I always believed that crocodiles were very intelligent animals. Now, I would also believe that the monitor is an intelligent animal (for a reptile), after all, I once saw a single monitor lizard “stealing” the prey of three lions! Finally, I have seen a video with an Ora hunting a buffalo. I will certainly don’t call it a “technique” of hunt, but better a “stubborn” attack. The buffalo, which was very lazy although protecting its calf, managed to hit the dragon several times but the Ora continued surrounding the buffalo and it managed to bite it many times. At the end, the Ora resisted the defensive attack of the buffalo (sincerely, its attacks were not very hard), but this last one seems to be seriously injured, as its muzzle was bleeding and don’t walked very well. The point is that a single Ora just damaged the buffalo (probably died latter) while a single wolf would killed it in the moment, with a much savage attack. At the end, both animals (wolf and ora) are great species, adapted to its own territory and are apex predators. In the case of the ora, it is the top of the food change with no competitors; in the case of the wolf, it have strong competitors like the puma and the bear, which can even kill them. Do you think that this adaptation of living with other large predators could be an advantage to the wolf in this fight?  Greetings. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Apr 26, 2014 12:42:43 GMT 5
At the end, both animals (wolf and ora) are great species, adapted to its own territory and are apex predators. In the case of the ora, it is the top of the food change with no competitors; in the case of the wolf, it have strong competitors like the puma and the bear, which can even kill them. Do you think that this adaptation of living with other large predators could be an advantage to the wolf in this fight? Greetings. Guate there are several responses I will make to your posts, I am abroad so I will be short: There are feral dogs on komodo, and saltwater crocodiles on rintja. Note that the dogs and all other mammalian carnivores are typically outcompeted by the dragon. Further the komodo dragon is not an instant of obscure island gigantism but more likely a survivor of a great radiation of giant paranoids. Morphologically modern dragons have been found in area associated with pliocene placental fauna (the demise of the dragon "paradise" was most likely caused by factors such as climate change). So I think everything what you said about competitors of the dragon also applies, only that dragons at least historically faced a more diverse band of competitors ranging from tigers to Megalania. |
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 12:58:32 GMT 5
Guate there are several responses I will make to your posts, I am abroad so I will be short: There are feral dogs on komodo, and saltwater crocodiles on rintja. Note that the dogs and all other mammalian carnivores are typically outcompeted by the dragon. Further the komodo dragon is not an instant of obscure island gigantism but more likely a survivor of a great radiation of giant paranoids. Morphologically modern dragons have been found in area associated with pliocene placental fauna (the demise of the dragon "paradise" was most likely caused by factors such as climate change). So I think everything what you said about competitors of the dragon also applies, only that dragons at least historically faced a more diverse band of competitors ranging from tigers to Megalania. Interesting, I did not take this in count, thanks to point this out. While I do think that crocodiles are a true menace for a Komodo (good new debate, don't you think?), I think that feral dogs are not a real menace for a full grow Ora, specially in a one-to-one combat. Do you think that climate was the true cause of the extinction of other "dragons" populations? I believed that it was the new mammal predators and the influence of the new human population, maybe I am not aware of new studies. Could you make a list of possible competitor (Pleistocene and Holocene) of the Komodo dragon? As for the wolf, I can quote a few from "memory": Panthera atrox, puma, brown bear, black bear (in some degree), Arctodus sp., American cheetah, Smilodon fatalis, Homotherium sp. and the Dire wolf; maybe the largest lynx species too, but I am not quite sure about that. |
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Post by Supercommunist on Apr 26, 2014 22:44:54 GMT 5
That's the first part, you can find the rest by clicking on the link. I would embed the rest, but I am afraid it would cause my computer to slow down.
True, but domestic snakes seem to be more compliant and indiffrent to human contact. Some lizards and crocodoiles actually seem to seek it.
In one part of the lizard king documentary I posted, you can see a komodo dragon clearly enjoying its time when around one of its handlers.
Tegus considered the convergent counterpart of monitors are more intrested in companionship than food.
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Post by coherentsheaf on Apr 27, 2014 2:03:35 GMT 5
Guate there are several responses I will make to your posts, I am abroad so I will be short: There are feral dogs on komodo, and saltwater crocodiles on rintja. Note that the dogs and all other mammalian carnivores are typically outcompeted by the dragon. Further the komodo dragon is not an instant of obscure island gigantism but more likely a survivor of a great radiation of giant paranoids. Morphologically modern dragons have been found in area associated with pliocene placental fauna (the demise of the dragon "paradise" was most likely caused by factors such as climate change). So I think everything what you said about competitors of the dragon also applies, only that dragons at least historically faced a more diverse band of competitors ranging from tigers to Megalania. Interesting, I did not take this in count, thanks to point this out. While I do think that crocodiles are a true menace for a Komodo (good new debate, don't you think?), I think that feral dogs are not a real menace for a full grow Ora, specially in a one-to-one combat. Do you think that climate was the true cause of the extinction of other "dragons" populations? I believed that it was the new mammal predators and the influence of the new human population, maybe I am not aware of new studies. Could you make a list of possible competitor (Pleistocene and Holocene) of the Komodo dragon? As for the wolf, I can quote a few from "memory": Panthera atrox, puma, brown bear, black bear (in some degree), Arctodus sp., American cheetah, Smilodon fatalis, Homotherium sp. and the Dire wolf; maybe the largest lynx species too, but I am not quite sure about that. Placental dominance is an unlikely hypothesis on several counts. The most important is the fact that the giant varanids at the end of their radiation started settling in faunae that had traditionally been dominated by placentals, like java.Hominids and climate are more likely candidates. Which of these two is not clear to me. A complete list is difficult and the only paper on the fact mentions panthera species but does not go into detail. I do not think such particulars are especially important though as it is sufficient to show that dragons were versatile predators with a rich history of interspecific competition, contrary to what is often portrayed (i.e. island freaks) |
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Post by theropod on Apr 27, 2014 2:21:52 GMT 5
guategojira: The primates in the world of reptiles are undoubtedly corvids
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guategojira
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Post by guategojira on Apr 27, 2014 9:06:17 GMT 5
Thank you to all of you for all this important information.  It is amazing how much we can learn in this topics. Let me see the documentary and I will return to comment. Greetings to all. |
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Mar 26, 2016 8:24:28 GMT 5
bumping this for corrective reasons because i see auffenberg's book was mentioned as to propose adults oras are tiny weight wise. i had a conversation with maneater on carnivora about this, so i will post what i said to him and some additional information on the subject matter here. we see that auffenberg(and related studies concerning the mass of these animals) had no age related segregation in place in the sample population he used in his book(e.g. yearling, juvenile, sub-adult, adult size categories). This is pretty significant for the simple fact that the young animals vastly outnumber the amount of 'average' adult animals, let alone the bigger ones. This is why we see low numbers pop up for the 'average' weight of komodo dragons -- this is the *population* average, not just singely the *average adult* weights we see here. i hope that made sense to some of the people viewing this thread.. anyway we see a similar problem with the likes of Jessop et.al, but i will probably address that later when/if it comes up. within auffenberg's bit he mentions briefly in this table that mature animals are 1.7m TBL+ in this table  Now, the bit i've written on younger animals making up a large proportion of the demographic is significant because even auffenberg notes this in his book -- see the quoted screenshots below for more on this. it cannot really be argued that young animals (yearling and up, for instance) vastly outnumber the amount of mature adult animals. One will have to consider that when auffenberg talks about "large" individuals, he is pretty consistently talking adult animals. This can be seen in the data presented by guategojira: Finally, here are the images:   The source is this book of 1981: we see that animals of ~1.7m in TBL(i know they're snout-ventral measurements, but we can ascertain total body length from the above data) are not as well represented in the demographic above( less numerous that is), which is part of my central point here; these snout-ventral lengths also become relevant once you understand that the tail length will measure approximately something similar to snout-vent length measurements; those of the younger animals are typically longer then those of the adults, according to the above book. Alot of the information in auffenberg may seem contradictory to the casual observer at first glance, but it is all about an understanding and interpretation of the information, really. to say that an adult komodo dragon would weigh 40-50kg on average is perfectly acceptable based on the data within this book. i also know of an healthy adult male ora weighing in at 81kg documented in jessop et.al, but this is rather beside my point in posting what i have here. on the subject of intelligence, i think that the intelligence of these animals is greatly downplayed here; captive animals or not, oras have been documented to demonstrate how incredibly smart they are -- which on its own smashes misconceptions flat. if we use auffenberg here as evidence for anything, why not the whole book and not just one section?In This book the ability of these lizards to recognize individual people(which is widely recognized even today in zoos) does indicate a level of intelligence.  and then there's this, originally posted by Fishfossil on carnivora, again demonstrating how smart these animals are -- as they can be target trained apparently Now onto the subject of ora/ feral dog interactions, auffenberg writes that the adult monitors are pretty clearly dominant over feral dogs, though the dogs will chase smaller individuals. they likely feed on smaller oras(like juveniles mainly) if they've got the chance, but this is pretty significantly reversed once the ora becomes an adult -- and this is significant for the reason that many try to bring up no competition or "island tameness" as an argument against the ora in interspecific scenarios, but this is pretty obviously not applicable. What we see behaviorally in the dogs(and in addition the wild hogs of the island) is that while they may try and goad the lizards while they're feeding, they often stay at the fringes of the carcass, and do not really attempt to feed when the varanids are -- an example of food resource dominance by the varanid. Again, this is all in auffenberg's book.   i do have suspicions that the wolf is going to "easily" overpower the monitor here at all -- i've seen little to support the notion a dog can do so to a varanid without a significant weight advantage. of course i would absolutely love to see recorded instances of this, as of yet i'm pretty openly undecided as to the outcome here |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Mar 26, 2016 9:58:37 GMT 5
i never seen a dog kill a varanid without being several times larger even if they outnumber the varanid.
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 26, 2016 11:10:52 GMT 5
I've actually seen a mongrel kill a rather large water monitor on youtube. Won't post it because the circumstances seemed rather shady but you can easily find it by yourself.
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