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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 6, 2015 2:33:33 GMT 5
Well, for a fast attack, it seems the orca would need more distance between itself and the Tyrannosaurus in order to build up the speed for a high-speed ramming attack. So while the attack is faster, there's more distance to cover at the same time, giving the tyrannosaurid more time to evade the ram with a side step or something.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 3:22:28 GMT 5
Well, for a fast attack, it seems the orca would need more distance between itself and the Tyrannosaurus in order to build up the speed for a high-speed ramming attack. So while the attack is faster, there's more distance to cover at the same time, giving the tyrannosaurid more time to evade the ram with a side step or something. Then the Orca simply cruises on by, turns around and tries again. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 6, 2015 6:26:51 GMT 5
^As does the tyrannosaur in its attempts to evade the delphinid (if the latter doesn't get attacked from some time of vulnerability while recovering from its charge's momentum).
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 7:10:26 GMT 5
^As does the tyrannosaur in its attempts to evade the delphinid (if the latter doesn't get attacked from some time of vulnerability while recovering from its charge's momentum). There is no vulnerability, if it misses the charge, it wont stop moving forward. It will be out range before the dinosaur has an opportunity to attack. If the Orca uses a ramming strategy there is virtually no way for the trex to win and your dodging scenario fails to incorporate the fact that the orcas intelligence is so much greater the trex might as well be a stick and considering the fact that orcas utilize their intelligence in almost all of their hunting strategies it wouldn't be too far fetch for it to say charge in not a straight line? Or aim for the theropod's legs? Trex looses, it's comparatively too limited in both terms of mobility and intelligence. |
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Post by Supercommunist on Nov 6, 2015 9:42:53 GMT 5
We kind of established that an orca charging full speed at the t.rex probably isn't a good idea, so the orca can't move too fast without injuring itself. I think a tyrannosaurus has a good chance of snagging the orca by the tail if it side steps.
Wouldn't t.rex just fall on top of the orca then? I'm also not entirely sure that an orca's ramming ability is as effective as you are suggesting. I still haven't seen any accounts of a orca or dolphin severely injuring a similar sized animal that way.
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Cross
Junior Member
The biggest geek this side of the galaxy. Avatar is Dakotaraptor steini from Saurian.
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Post by Cross on Nov 6, 2015 12:12:46 GMT 5
We kind of established that an orca charging full speed at the t.rex probably isn't a good idea, so the orca can't move too fast without injuring itself. I think a tyrannosaurus has a good chance of snagging the orca by the tail if it side steps. Wouldn't t.rex just fall on top of the orca then? I'm also not entirely sure that an orca's ramming ability is as effective as you are suggesting. I still haven't seen any accounts of a orca or dolphin severely injuring a similar sized animal that way. What do you mean "fall on top of the orca"? @macronectes said that the Orca can't go any higher than the standing height of the T. rex, so if an Orca rammed into the T. rex from an altitude of 3.4 meters (which is the height of the largest T. rex at the hip), then the T. rex would fall over onto the ground. And the Orca doesn't have to do it at full speed for it to be effective. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 6, 2015 17:36:41 GMT 5
^As does the tyrannosaur in its attempts to evade the delphinid (if the latter doesn't get attacked from some time of vulnerability while recovering from its charge's momentum). There is no vulnerability, if it misses the charge, it wont stop moving forward. It will be out range before the dinosaur has an opportunity to attack. If the Orca uses a ramming strategy there is virtually no way for the trex to win and your dodging scenario fails to incorporate the fact that the orcas intelligence is so much greater the trex might as well be a stick and considering the fact that orcas utilize their intelligence in almost all of their hunting strategies it wouldn't be too far fetch for it to say charge in not a straight line? Or aim for the theropod's legs? Trex looses [sic], it's comparatively too limited in both terms of mobility and intelligence. So you don't think the orca will eventually have to deal with momentum when it decides to stop moving before it turns around and tries again? If it does decide to attack in a non-straight line, the orca would still have to create a somewhat long arc to gain the speed to knock the tyrannosaur over or something, which could still give it some time to prepare for the attack. Also, I should note I never necessarily favored the dinosaur. I always felt that the orca's ramming would be a large advantage, it's just that I think the tyrannosaur has some way of winning. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 18:21:59 GMT 5
We kind of established that an orca charging full speed at the t.rex probably isn't a good idea, so the orca can't move too fast without injuring itself. I think a tyrannosaurus has a good chance of snagging the orca by the tail if it side steps. Wouldn't t.rex just fall on top of the orca then? I'm also not entirely sure that an orca's ramming ability is as effective as you are suggesting. I still haven't seen any accounts of a orca or dolphin severely injuring a similar sized animal that way. We didn't establish anything. It's just end all be all The Orca is too fast, too mobile and to intelligent for the the trex to handle in this nonsensical scenario. You can hope and believe all you want that the trex stands a chance but it doesn't. Besides even if it tried to side step, it's too large and to slow to likely get out of the way entirely, would recieve a grazing blow mid step and fall over anyway, that's assuming it would even think to side step, it would probably try to run away, most animals that have another animal racing towards them do. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 18:22:55 GMT 5
There is no vulnerability, if it misses the charge, it wont stop moving forward. It will be out range before the dinosaur has an opportunity to attack. If the Orca uses a ramming strategy there is virtually no way for the trex to win and your dodging scenario fails to incorporate the fact that the orcas intelligence is so much greater the trex might as well be a stick and considering the fact that orcas utilize their intelligence in almost all of their hunting strategies it wouldn't be too far fetch for it to say charge in not a straight line? Or aim for the theropod's legs? Trex looses [sic], it's comparatively too limited in both terms of mobility and intelligence. So you don't think the orca will eventually have to deal with momentum when it decides to stop moving before it turns around and tries again? If it does decide to attack in a non-straight line, the orca would still have to create a somewhat long arc to gain the speed to knock the tyrannosaur over or something, which could still give it some time to prepare for the attack. Also, I should note I never necessarily favored the dinosaur. I always felt that the orca's ramming would be a large advantage, it's just that I think the tyrannosaur has some way of winning. It doesn't have to stop if it misses, it can just circle back, it's not like it has to worry about the trex catching it. I also love how you all assume the trex even had the level of intelligence necessary to devise such a counter attack, odds are it would either run away or towards the attacking orca (likely away) and proceed to get rammed. |
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Post by Supercommunist on Nov 6, 2015 18:36:54 GMT 5
There is a good chance that tyrannosaurus encounter prey that charge towards it and developed the skills to avoid such attacks. But that's just speculation my part.
...Devise a counterattack. You don't need to be an expert tactician to think of turning around and attacking an animal that's swimming past you.
And I also love that nobody has posted an account of an orca actually beating a large animal to death.
Something else to consider, what happens if the orca rams into the dinosaur, doesn't manage to knock it over and is now in reach of its jaws?
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Post by theropod on Nov 6, 2015 19:48:55 GMT 5
How do you see T. rex doing any significant damage to a target passing it at high speed? Even assuming it could overcome its own inertia fast enough to both sidestep and counterattack a charging opponent in passing, it would still have to place a proper bite in order to be effective. A quick slash isn’t sufficient, it needs to bite down properly (difficult enough against something with a high girth that is moving past you at a high speed) and have the time to crush it (which it won’t, because the target is not standing still). I can’t see it gain such a crushing hold on something that according to your own logic is moving too fast to stop quickly. Supercommunist: We did? I don’t recall having established anything as to how fast an orca’s ramming speed is, but it is probably not that low judging by descriptions. Ford et al. 2005 regarding attacks on minke whales, p. 612: "Once transients caught up to a minke whale, they attached it by ramming and swimming onto its back to impede respiration, tactics that have been reported previously in predation on minke whales and other large cetaceans (Silber et al. 1990, Jefferson et al. 1991, Goley and straley 1994, Pitman et al. 2001)."Pitman et al. 2001 regarding attacks on sperm whales, p. 498: "Almost immediately they attacked one or more sperm whales, striking them perpendicularly well below the water line, usually mid-body, along the side"p. 501: "At that moment, an adult male killer whale charged in and slammed into it."Visser et al. 2010 recorded an orca ramming a false killer whale with sufficient speed to throw it ~10m high into the air (We’re talking about a 1t+ animal here), so it must have been rammed with an enourmous force (consider 1000kg*a[m/s²]=F[N] and t*a[m/s²]=v[m/s]=(2*9.81[m/s²]*10[m])^.5) and kinetic energy (.5mv²=1000kg*9.81[m/s²]*10[m]). Another indirect example: ordinarytraveler.com/articles/orcas-attack-gray-whalesKiller whales actively and commonly ram large prey when attacking it, and they can certainly do so without fracturing their own skulls in the process (otherwise they wouldn’t do it). As regards other dolphins, there have been plenty of poorly supported reports of them killing sharks by ramming (though certainly there is good evidence in the peer-reviewed literature that they can drive them away, so they likely do pose a threat), but usually information on the size of the sharks in question is scarce or they are relatively small. There is good evidence that dolphins can cause serious, even fatal injuries to humans though (so by inference we can probably assume they’d be able to do the same to other, similar-sized animals): "Dolphin-to-human aggression sometimes resulted in such serious human injury as unconsciousness, a ruptured spleen, and broken ribs, (e.g. ‘Donald’, an unnamed dolphin from Florida Keys) or even death (‘Tiao’)."from here: whitelab.biology.dal.ca/lb/Samuels%20Bejder%20et%20al%202003.pdfsee also: whale.wheelock.edu/archives/whalenet94/0145.htmlIt’s orcas that are relevant here, not bottlenose dolphins though. –––References:Ford, John K. B.; Ellis, Graeme M.; Matkin, Dena R.; Balcomb, Kenneth C.; Briggs, David; Morton, Alexandra B. (2005): Killer Whale Attacks on Minke Whales: Prey Capture and antipredator Tactics. Marine Mammal Science, 21 (4) pp. 603–618. Pitman, Robert L.; Ballance, Lisa T.; Mesnick, Sarah I.; Chivers, Susan J.: (2001): Killer Whale Predation on Sperm Whales: Observations and Implications. Marine Mammal Science, 3 (17) pp. 494-507. Visser, Ingrid N.; Zaeschmar, Jochen; Halliday, Jo; Abraham, Annie; Ball, Phil; Bradley, Robert; Daly, Shamus; Hatwell, Tommy; Johnson, Tammy; Johnson, Warren; Kay, Laura; Maessen, Tim; McKay, Vanessa; Peters, Taira; Turner, Nathan; Umuroa, Basil; Pace, Daniela S. (2010): First Record of Predation on False Killer Whales (Pseudorca crassidens) by Killer Whales (Orcinus orca). Aquatic Mammals, 36 (2) pp. 195-204. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 20:14:00 GMT 5
There is a good chance that tyrannosaurus encounter prey that charge towards it and developed the skills to avoid such attacks. But that's just speculation my part. ...Devise a counterattack. You don't need to be an expert tactician to think of turning around and attacking an animal that's swimming past you. And I also love that nobody has posted an account of an orca actually beating a large animal to death. Something else to consider, what happens if the orca rams into the dinosaur, doesn't manage to knock it over and is now in reach of its jaws? You are correct it is just speculation and so frankly meaningless. Their is also a difference between something the animal knows to be prey charging towards it and something entirely unfamiliar charging towards it. No you don't but trex were hardly the sharpest crayon in the box and side stepping and then counterattacks is a hell of a lot less successful if both actions are reactionary opposed to planned and again trex were not exceptionally quick animals and even if the trex successfully bites the orca as it misses it's charge, it's biting into 5-7 tons travelling at roughly 30 miles per hour, that is a ridiculous amount of stress on the teeth and jaw and it is being applied in a way the jaws were not designed to take. No one needs to post an account of orcas killing large animals by ramming because no one is claiming the orca will ram the trex to death, but instead will knock it over, from there the orca can do as it pleases. Besides orcas don't kill large prey by ramming them, they use superior tactics because drowning a whole takes alot less time than bludgeoning it to death, the largest prey that is killed with ramming is probably sharks. That isn't really something to consider, when you consider the forces involved even if the dinosaur stays up right I doubt it's going to react very quickly. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 6, 2015 20:27:43 GMT 5
Actually I think ramming a similar-sized opponent to death would be a viable option for the orca, especially if said opponent lacked the thick layers of protective blubber and that its usual prey has.
But what has definitely been established is that a giant theropod would suffer severe injuries if it fell, so yes, "simply" pushing a T. rex over may very well suffice to kill it.
And I don’t think there can be any doubt that a 5t object slamming into it at high speed would be enough to do so, especially since said object evidently has the capacity of acellerating 1t whales quickly enough to catapult them high into the air.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2015 20:42:02 GMT 5
Actually I think ramming a similar-sized opponent to death would be a viable option for the orca, especially if said opponent lacked the thick layers of protective blubber and that its usual prey has. But what has definitely been established is that a giant theropod would suffer severe injuries if it fell, so yes, "simply" pushing a T. rex over may very well suffice to kill it. And I don’t think there can be any doubt that a 5t object slamming into it at high speed would be enough to do so, especially since said object evidently has the capacity of acellerating 1t whales quickly enough to catapult them high into the air. I don't at all disagree that was just my way of lazily opting out of having to look for accounts, which you supplied anyhow. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 7, 2015 0:24:33 GMT 5
Ok, a last question: why would a Tyrannosaurus be so moronic as to approach an animal charging at it at high speed head on? Sure, it wasn't especially smart, but I'm sure any animal would have the common sense not to do that.
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