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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 14, 2021 3:38:40 GMT 5
Could be that false gharials only deathroll to get themselves out of sticky situations but don't actually do it when biting prey.
Of course, it is also possible that the researchers were a bit too conservative and underestimated the strength of a sarcho's jaws.
It seems a lot of paleontologist kind of underestimate extinct animals, seeing as we had people arguing that tyrannosaurus was a scavenger, giant pterosaurs were too heavy to fly, and that large multi ton theropods rarely attacked and hunted fully grown animals.
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 7, 2021 19:12:29 GMT 5
Info dump incoming. All citations below are hyperlinked. Felids and canids have different skull shape patterns for specializing on small versus large prey ( Slater, 2009). Corroborated in this book ( Castelló, 2020). And in this biomechanical study ( Slater & Van Valkenburgh, 2009). Large cat skulls are stronger, though, even when scaled to the same surface area. A note on big cat and bear canine teeth ( Christiansen, 2008). So the longest canine crowns for tigers (the citation is of a book about tigers specifically, not sure about lions) can be 9 cm (~3.5 inches) long. At first glance, this sounds impressive and horrifying. However, I don't think canines this long (compared to more reasonably sized ones) are necessarily an advantage. If anything, having canines this long could very well be disadvantageous, as canines that are too long would be more fragile. This would not be completely balanced out by the cross sectional area of the tooth ( Freeman & Lemen, 2006). I'm pretty sure I've posted this before somewhere, but interestingly tigers with broken canines actually take prey about the same size as those without. Although they're obviously not as sharp, it could be that the decreased length of the canine crowns makes them more resistant against large prey ( Goodrich et al., 2012). EDIT 5/9/21: also, it appears that despite their relatively short snouts/jaws, cats seem to lose a lot of the muscle force going into the bite. Wroe (2007) shows the results of a finite element analysis on Thylacoleo carnifex in comparison to Panthera leo. The lion specimen used was a particularly large one that they estimated at 267 kg. While total muscle force was estimated at 8880 N (almost 2,000 lbf) for the lion, the actual bite reaction force at the carnassial teeth was 5612 N (~1,262 lbf), which is much less than total jaw muscle force. Bite force at the canines is even less at 2906 N (~653 lbf). In other words, the actual killing bite of the lion has a third of the force of the raw strength of its jaw muscles. Stephen Wroe has noted before how a lot of the mammalian carnivores he's looked at showed this kind of mechanical inefficiency (with the marsupial lion being one of the more efficient mammalian carnivores he's looked at). "' I have to say that I am pretty impressed with just how complex and sophisticated the feeding apparatus of the shark is," Wroe added. "With all the mammalian predators I've looked at, a lot of the muscle force going into the bite is actually lost. The shark has a much more efficient lever system going on.'" www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna26012702
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Post by Supercommunist on May 15, 2021 3:03:25 GMT 5
Was looking through this thread and decided to respond to some old posts. I looked at that study, and I gotta say they seem like overestimates of felid bite force given that, according to their results, the cats would be biting harder than similar sized crocodiles: For instance, the 100 kg jaguar bit harder than a 110 kg morelet's crocodile while a 200 kg tiger would have had a more powerful bite force than a 207 kg mugger crocodile: Given Erickson figures that most crocodilians bite 3 times harder than cats at equal weights, the top figures are very odd. 3:39 I do see that you very recently provided a quote that suggests cats do not efficiently transfer their full jaw strength into a bite so it could be the case that the 2012 cat study didn't keep that in mind. I am not familiar with Baurusuchus' size but assuming that 14 kg specimen is a small animal young, it could be the case the case that young baurusuchus have weaker jaws that become more powerful and robust as they age like modern day crocodilians. www.alligatorfarm.com/images/Research/Erickson%20et%20al.%202003.pdf
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 15, 2021 3:39:37 GMT 5
Yeah, I recently looked through the methods of that 2012 paper again, and I don't trust the way it estimated bite force. They calculated leverage purely from lateral photographs of their specimens. anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ar.22518Whereas the study by Stephen Wroe used actual 3D biomechanical models. I think it's pretty obvious which one gives you a more accurate picture of a jaw's lever system. Additionally, one of the other papers I cited estimated how much force it would take to fracture the canine teeth of various carnivores. For perspective I bolded and underlined two species that appear in both this paper and Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012). The canine bite force figure for the tiger in the latter study is equivalent to 6901 N, while the canine bite force figure for the clouded leopard is equivalent to 1068 N. These bite force figures would have us believe that the tiger and clouded leopard bite with almost the amount of force needed to break their own canine teeth, which is ridiculous. Cats, especially those that prey on large prey, need strong canines not just for biting hard, but also to be able to withstand the forces from large, violently struggling prey (this is why their canines are relatively rounded in cross section). If, for example, a tiger bites with nearly 7000 N of force at its canines, those teeth would be subjected to forces close to what they can withstand. Now imagine if whatever sambar deer, wild boar, or (even worse) gaur it's biting into decides to struggle: the cat's teeth would snap off. It makes no sense for cat canines to have such low safety factors. EDIT: As for Baurusuchus, I found what appears to be a more complete and cleaned up version of the paper I posted ( link->). They mention that this specimen of Baurusuchus they used had a skull 33.10 cm in basal length (the lion used in Wroe's 2007 study probably had a skull of similar length*), with an estimated total body length of about 170 cm, which would make it, in their words, a medium-sized baurusuchid. No idea on body mass, but I can't imagine it would have been all that enormous. *The lion used in Wroe (2007) had a skull that was said to be almost 52% longer than the marsupial lion skull in the same study. That marsupial lion had a skull that was 213 mm (or 21.3 cm) in length ( Wroe et al., 1999). A skull that's 52% longer is ~32 cm long.
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Post by Verdugo on May 15, 2021 19:52:46 GMT 5
Yeah, I recently looked through the methods of that 2012 paper again, and I don't trust the way it estimated bite force. They calculated leverage purely from lateral photographs of their specimens. Whereas the study by Stephen Wroe used actual 3D biomechanical models. I think it's pretty obvious which one gives you a more accurate picture of a jaw's lever system. Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) is one a few modelled bite force studies, in which the muscles architecture of animals were dissected and examined. This allows them to actually observe many variables that previously could only be assumed or estimated based on osteology. The variables are: . Muscle volume/mass or anatomical cross sectional area (ACSA): this variable was actually measured in Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012). In studies do not involve dissecting animals (which are most studies in extant and all studies on extinct, duh), muscle mass/volume or ACSA can only be estimated based on the attachment areas on the skull. . Fibre length/pennation/physiological cross sectional area (PCSA): there are no reliable ways i know to determine or estimate this variable based on osteology alone. This variable is, therefore, almost always assumed in studies in which muscles are not dissected. Wroe (2008) paper allows for more accurate in-level arms modelling thanks to 3D FEA. However, the two variables i mentioned above were either estimated or assumed, not observed and measured as in Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012). Wroe (2008) only worked with 'dry skull' and did not dissect any specimens. Actually, Wroe (2008) used the total muscle force data from his earlier 'dry-skull' 2D paper, which is Wroe et al (2005)Wroe et al (2005) did not take into account in pennation and PCSA. In fact, they assumed the fibre to be parallel, hence PCSA = ACSA (anatomical cross sectional area). Wroe et al (2005) assumption is intuitive for comparative purposes, especially to extinct animals, but it is not appropriate when it comes to estimating realistic bite force. Also, ACSA in Wroe et al (2005) was estimated using Thompson 'dry skull' method, not examined and measured as in Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012). See their Supplementary for description of the methodology: Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) while still used 2D level arm method, the level arms are based on the orientation of the jaw muscles. The orientation and direction of jaw muscles were determined by connecting the centroid of muscle origin to the centroid of muscle insertion: The origins and insertions of these jaw muscles were dissected and determined, not estimated or assumed.
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 16, 2021 1:00:32 GMT 5
I knew this. It's not like I conveniently glossed over the crux of their methods and somehow skipped straight over to their talk on leverage (I knew this before I ever realized it was a 2D model). The problem is, as you yourself stated, it's still a two-dimensional lever model. The data you plug in for muscle insertion, origin, fiber length, mass, etc. can be spot on, but are you actually arguing that it gives you as full of a picture of the muscle lever system as an actual three-dimensional model, assuming these same factors aren't also drastically removed from reality (a bit more on that below)?
Yes, the insertions and origins of the jaw muscles in Wroe's biomechanical models are estimates. Is there an actual, specific problem with where some of the muscles were arranged in his models? Is the muscle mapping in that study actually that far off from reality?
Yes, pennate muscles allow for greater force production, more so than when every muscle fiber is assumed to be parallel. But if you correct for size, the tiger's canine bite force as estimated by Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) would be nearly three times greater than the bite force of the lion as per Wroe's methods (and still well over twice the force at actual body masses, where the lion is a third heavier). It is also, as I've already said, almost the maximum amount of force that the teeth can withstand.
Hartstone-Rose et al. also mention that their specimens were dissected and their fibers measured at near occlusion, and thus that their bite force estimates can be considered to be bite forces at occlusion. They admit that they don't account for different degrees of gape. I wonder if this helps explain why their force estimates are so high.
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Post by Supercommunist on May 16, 2021 1:37:12 GMT 5
It's worth noting on carnivora, when they were a bunch of threads comparing reptile strength to mammal strength, one guy posted this study that measured dog bite force via electric muscle stiumlation and produced some rather absurd figures: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5932386/The largest dog in the study was 55 kg, and I assume it it the one that produced a bite of 3417 newtons, which higher than a 100 kg morolets crocodile. There's no way that is accurate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morelet%27s_crocodileI am not as well studied as some other guys in thread, so I am sorry if I throw out some speculation that sounds like psuedo science, but maybe these bite force studies are just as flawed as dry skull bite forces, as it measures the absolute maximum theoretical limits of an animal's jaw strength rather than a hard bite they would realistically employ. For instance, you occasionally hear stories of human's performing superhuman feats of strengths in desperate situations and in the rare cases these occur, usually the person injures themselves. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strengthMaybe a tiger could bite with a force with a 7000 newtons if it was pumped full of adrenaline but it'd probably break its teeth and tear its own jaw muscles doing so. But I, really, really, really doubt, cat's can normally produce bite forces that high. If a lion had a bite force comparable to a similar sized crocodile's we should see them demolishing hyena skulls/necks left and right, and they would make short work of tortoises and pangolins but that doesn't occur.
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Post by Verdugo on May 16, 2021 16:54:48 GMT 5
I knew this. It's not like I conveniently glossed over the crux of their methods and somehow skipped straight over to their talk on leverage (I knew this before I ever realized it was a 2D model). The problem is, as you yourself stated, it's still a two-dimensional lever model. The data you plug in for muscle insertion, origin, fiber length, mass, etc. can be spot on, but are you actually arguing that it gives you as full of a picture of the muscle lever system as an actual three-dimensional model, assuming these same factors aren't also drastically removed from reality (a bit more on that below)? The main difference between 2D model and 3D model is only in the muscle in-level arms actually. The other factors that i mentioned earlier (fibre length, PCSA, muscle volume, etc) appears irrelevant to which models you choose. You could calculate Bite Force using the following: Bite Force = Total Muscle Force * Muscle In-Level Arms / Bite Position Out-Level Arm Out-level: the distance between the position at which you wish to obtain the bite force to articular condyle. We just ignore it for our purpose since it is irrelevant to whether your models are 2D or 3D Total Muscle Force = PCSA (or ACSA) * Specific Tension Specific tension: researchers usually use a value around 30 N/cm^2. It's an arbitrary constant, and irrelevant to your muscle modelling method. For instance, Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) used value of 3 kg/cm^2. Wroe (2008) used 30 N/cm^2 since he used muscle force value from Wroe et al (2005) PCSA (or ACSA if you assume no-pennation, parallel-fibre muscle model): this variable could only be obtained through either dissection of the muscles itself or estimated based on the muscle attachment areas on the skull. This is variable is irrelevant to your the muscle modelling techniques you choose later. For instance, Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) obtained this variable PCSA through dissection but decided to model the muscle in-level arms as 2D. Wroe (2008) on the other hand, used total muscle force data from Wroe et al(2005), in which the ACSA was estimated using Thompson's 'dry skull' method. So only Muscle In-Level Arms variable has relevancy to whether your model is 2D or 3D. 2D muscle in-level arms methods are not as realistic as 3D ones but they are not counter-intuitive nor prone to overestimation either. If anything, 2D level arms tend to have lower result than 3D ones when keeping every other variables equal. The more realistic 3D level arm methods appear to have more advantageous in-levels in comparison to 2D ones. You can see McHenry's Kronosaurus paper, in which his 3D results are higher than his 2D, despite keeping all other variables equal. Or Wroe (2008) also has higher bite force results despite using same Total Muscle Force as Wroe et al (2005) Hartstone-Rose et al. also mention that their specimens were dissected and their fibers measured at near occlusion, and thus that their bite force estimates can be considered to be bite forces at occlusion. They admit that they don't account for different degrees of gape. I wonder if this helps explain why their force estimates are so high. Most bite force studies I have come across are either calculated at occlusion or at an 'optimal' gape angle (varied from study to study). I do not think it really matters, and biting at occlusion is not unrealistic as it can simulate a big cat clamping around the throat of a prey animal for instance. Yes, the insertions and origins of the jaw muscles in Wroe's biomechanical models are estimates. Is there an actual, specific problem with where some of the muscles were arranged in his models? Is the muscle mapping in that study actually that far off from reality? No, I do not think there are any problems with how the muscles are mapped in Wroe's study. Even if there is, I do not think it is possible for me to tell nor if I think it could affect the bite force results by a significant margin for me to even bother. I just point out that the muscle mapping in Wroe's paper is still an estimation, while Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) is based on actual dissection of the muscle. If there is a discrepancy to reality, Wroe's paper is just more likely to exhibit them than Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) (not that I think there are anything wrong with his muscle reconstruction) Yes, pennate muscles allow for greater force production, more so than when every muscle fiber is assumed to be parallel. But if you correct for size, the tiger's canine bite force as estimated by Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) would be nearly three times greater than the bite force of the lion as per Wroe's methods (and still well over twice the force at actual body masses, where the lion is a third heavier). It is also, as I've already said, almost the maximum amount of force that the teeth can withstand. I am doubtful the Lion in Wroe (2008) actually weighs up to 267 kg as suggested by the paper. The Lion's specimen appears to be the same one in McHenry et al (2007). You see Table 1 for detailed measurements of the specimen. It's likely that the regression they used has overestimated the body mass of this specimen. A Total Skull Length of 378 mm and condylobasal length of 332 mm does not seem exceptional for a fully grown male Lion. I prefer using the equation from Christiansen (2007) to estimate body mass in modern Felid. Because: log(BM) = 2.762*log(CBL) -4.638 When solved using CBL of 332 mm, I got a BM of 212 kg. Frankly, i would not be surprised if the Lion in Wroe (2008) is similar in size to the tiger in Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012). I have seen Lion with significant larger skull, weighing only at 200 kg body mass. It is possible that the parallel-fibre, no pennation, model in Wroe (2008) has greatly underestimated the bite force of these animals, even as much as two times as you have pointed out. Wroe (2008) does not provide muscle CSA or muscle volume details of his specimen. I have even looked through Wroe et al (2005) supplementary but still could find the data. However, Wroe (2008) does provide total muscle force data of 8880 N and we know they use specific tension of 30 N/cm^2. Using the above formula I provided, ACSA can be calculated (in parallel fibre, no pennation model, PCSA = ACSA): ACSA = 8880 / 30 = 296 cm^2 Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) provided PCSA for Tiger in Table 2: PCSA = 622.42 cm^2 The unrealistic, no pennation, parallel-fibre PCSA (PCSA = ACSA in no pennation, parallel-fibre model) in Wroe (2008) is less than half of what observed in a living animal. I wish I could elaborate more on your points regarding teeth strength but i'm running out of time. I recommend you read Sherman et al (2017). The Alligator tooth failed at only 500 N, not from an adult animal but: In a realistic setting, the bite force would be distributed over 4 Canine teeth in a Tiger.
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 16, 2021 18:40:31 GMT 5
I never said they were relevant. I literally said the data you put in for those can be spot on, which is great, but you're still not getting a realistic picture of the in-lever arms if it's only two-dimensional. What Wroe's three-dimensional model really shows you is that, in actuality, there's a very marked decrease in bite force in a cat's jaw from total muscle force to the carnassial teeth, and, in turn, from the carnassial teeth to the canines (and unless I've missed something in your posts, you should see this regardless of the data you put in for muscle fiber length, physiological cross section, etc., etc.). This discrepancy in force between the carnassials and canines varies within each species in Hartstone-Rose et al.'s study, but none of them are nearly to the extent shown in Wroe's models. Biting at occlusion seems to imply that gape angle is very low. That is, it's opened its mouth, but only just enough for the teeth to be near occlusion, only to bite down again. For example, when a cat is using its carnassial teeth to cut through skin and shear flesh while feeding. An actual killing bite, of course, requires a notably wider gape (and thus, reduced bite force). This discrepancy is intriguing. However, a later study (again with Dr. Hartstone-Rose) points out something that may be of interest ( Hartstone-Rose et al., 2015). That captive felids might have more massive masticatory muscles than their wild counterparts (accompanied by what are apparently rather important differences in skull shape) may be important to note. Because with the exception of the bobcat and clouded leopard (both of which were wild specimens), the specimens examined in the 2012 study all lived in captivity (and from the same facility). The implication seems to be that it's possible the PCSAs in the jaw muscles of most of the cats in the 2012 study are significantly increased relative to wild specimens (and are therefore not representative of them). The only thing I don't know is if the lion used in Wroe's study was captive or wild. Lo and behold, if you look at the wild bobcat specimen's PCSA, and compare it to that of their caracal in Table 2 (these two were similar in body mass; 15.5 vs 16.59 kg, respectively), it's significantly less (46.83 cm 2 vs 62.81 cm 2). Even the serval and ocelot, both of which weighed a few kilograms less than the wild bobcat (13.9 and 11.59 kg, respectively), had substantially greater PCSAs than the wild bobcat specimen (61.02 and 67.11 cm 2, respectively). No, the authors seem to be saying the bite force estimate is concentrated at one particular tooth. They never imply that these forces would be concentrated over several different teeth. " The working-side BF estimates were then calculated using the following equations:...where WBFCA, WBFPM, and WBFCM, are the working side BFs at the canine, premolar and notch of the lower carnassial (M 1), respectively, c is the force constant of muscle cross-section (3 kg/cm2; Close, 1972)..." At least from my experience, this is, in fact, what bite force estimates tend to entail: the amount of force at a particular tooth. I haven't read this last paper of yours fully yet, but if it wasn't an adult like you say, why would they think mentioning a bite force of 10 kN is relevant in this context? I don't imagine an immature individual would bite that hard, and therefore not subject its teeth to a given amount of force. EDIT: as for the size of the lion in Wroe's study, he claimed that the lion specimen used in his study was a particularly large specimen before providing a weight estimate for it. I don't know if this claim was based on his weight estimate (in which case you'd have a valid point) or if he actually had some information about this specimen during its life. Even if it was "only" 212 kg, scaling the tiger from Hartstone-Rose et al. (2012) up to that size would give us a bite force of ~7174 N. That's still a ~2.5-fold discrepancy with the results of Wroe (2008) when corrected for size.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 2, 2021 9:23:19 GMT 5
This 2017 study said this about the jaw of Psittacosaurus ( Taylor et al., 2017). However, a more recent study re-estimated the jaw strength and mechanical efficiency of an adult Psittacosaurus (they even used the same specimen), and they got much higher bite forces, and thus what seems to be higher mechanical efficiency than estimated previously ( Landi et al., 2021). In Table 6, the ratio of bite force at the tip of the predentary to input force was 0.43, which I think means that 43% of muscle force was transferred to actual bite force at the beak tip. Thus, an adult Psittacosaurus compares much more favorably to parrots in jaw lever efficiency than previously made out to be (bite force at the tip of the lower beak was 82.85 N, btw). It should be worth noting that this study does not account for the pterygoideus muscle either. Taylor et al. also say this. But while they address beak morphology, they seem to ignore Sereno et al’s point about the jaw joint of Psittacosaurus that allowed the lower beak to be retracted inside the upper beak to crack nuts. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842669/
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 11, 2021 3:38:54 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 12, 2021 20:41:02 GMT 5
digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7824&context=gradschool_dissthesesIt's worth noting though, that some pliosaur teeth (namely those of Pliosaurus and Liopleurodon) are actually triangular in cross section with three sharp ridges; those of Liopleurodon and " Pliosaurus" andrewsi are actually equipped with transverse ribs on the cutting edges, effectively making them serrated ( Massare, 1987; Sues, 2019). So these teeth aren't completely conical like a dolphin's tooth. Kronosaurus is a pliosaur with teeth that better fit this description (being conical and having no cutting edges). Also some interesting notes on squalodont teeth: the only teeth that were not laterally compressed were the incisors, which were nearly circular in cross section, so the canines were laterally compressed as well. Even the incisors, though, were still slightly serrated. Brackets mine.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 14, 2021 6:00:07 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jul 25, 2021 1:05:22 GMT 5
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Post by Supercommunist on Aug 10, 2021 4:16:50 GMT 5
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