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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 27, 2018 2:18:24 GMT 5
Yup.
But now I just gotta find a way to get full access.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 8, 2018 6:55:22 GMT 5
Ooooooo...kaaay...are you talking to me or Greg Erickson or both? I got the impression that the whole bite pressure thing he brought up was simply to illustrate the fact that a huge amount of force was being concentrated all on the tooth tips. Well I don’t know, I wasn’t around to observe the evolution of Tyrannosaurus rex, and therefore don’t know why exactly it would need to be able to achieve any quantitative value of strength for bone cracking (whatever that may be). I just went with published figures, tried making deductions with some math on my own, and looked at what I got. Note, though, that even Gignac & Erickson’s untouched tooth pressure exertion estimates far exceed the apparent ultimate shear stress of cortical bone, as they state in the results section of their paper. I’m not necessarily defending what I wrote back then (because I don’t know just how hard the thing bit, I just know it bit hard), but...is the compressive strength for enamel necessarily universal among the animal kingdom? I’m no expert on that matter, but I’m not yet ready to completely accept it being unanimous among all animal taxa (the way to make me do so, of course, would be to direct me to a reliable source/evidence suggesting so). In a similar manner to how lions supposedly have claws far harder than our fingernails (despite being made of the same substance, thus making me question that there’s necessarily one single set hardness to the material), I do wonder if the compressive strength of enamel varies within taxa. After all, even Gignac & Erickson’s highest tooth pressure figure far exceeds the compressive strength of enamel (or at least what I can find of it; 384 MPa according to this paper?).
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Post by theropod on Sept 8, 2018 17:20:41 GMT 5
What and whom are you responding to? Enamel having massively different compressive strength across taxa can be ruled out, how do you see that working? There are certainly structural modifications at the microscopic and nano-scale (such as prism orientation) and chemical variations (such as flourine content) that might increase the toughness and compression strength of enamel in some taxa, but up to 9000 MPa is unheard of and hardly feasible. Even bone is usually assumed for simulations to hava broadly similar strength properties across taxa (even though bone, unlike enamel, has a large organic component as well as much more complex structural variation, meaning it could actually be expected to be more variable). www.researchgate.net/profile/Wighart_Koenigswald/publication/19560721_Changes_in_the_tooth_enamel_of_early_Palaeocene_mammals_allowing_dietary_diversity/links/0deec5163e79644f48000000/Changes-in-the-tooth-enamel-of-early-Palaeocene-mammals-allowing-dietary-diversity.pdfThis paper cites the compressive strength as 95-385 MPa. That’s already a pretty impressively large range, but (if legit, and not including demineralized/weakened enamel too) this can be explained by the aforementioned structural and chemical variation. And yet the width of that range pales compared to extending that 20 times upwards. That would quite simply be the most amazing adaption in the world, if one animal could grow dental apatite 20 times stronger than the dental apatite of other animals. So yes, tooth pressures in the thousands of megapascals are certainly purely hypothetical. And in all honesty, why would an animal even need to produce tooth pressures that high, when the compressive strength of bone is just 170 MPa? So creating a tooth pressure just above that, but lower than the failure strength of enamel, will be enough to essentially crush any bone. Since the teeth become much wider at the base and I don’t know how the figures you are discussing are measured, presumable a lot more force would be required for this the deeper the teeth penetrate, when biting a large bone, and additionally in order to not just crush but also shear or snap such bones, which explains the need for a powerful bite force. So whoever it’s from, I agree with your quote. It makes a lot of sense. If a T. rex really bit down on a hard object’s surface (i.e. higher compressive strength than its teeth) with only its tooth tips making contact (i.e. minimal area over which bite force is distributed) at full force, it would likely break its teeth. Such fractures on fossil theropod (and other) teeth aren’t exactly unheard of. In reality though, most things a T. rex would encounter would actually be softer (lower compressive strength) than its teeth, so pressures like those hypothetical figures you cite couldn’t be generated in the first place, unless we envision T. rex chewing rocks.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 8, 2018 18:19:30 GMT 5
Aurelius replied to one of my ~1 year old posts here. A few hours after I replied, I could not see his post anymore. For that matter, I couldn't find his name in the members list or in posts that I remember he liked.
Either he's trying to make me appear insane (/notserious) or he just left the forum and left no trace of himself (he only had 13 posts after curiously replying to me, so it wouldn't have been much).
But Gignac & Erickson already report tooth pressures generated at T. rex's tooth tips well above enamel's compressive strength, no matter how you slice it. Are they also purely hypothetical?
"Apical tooth pressures (1 mm crown height) range from 718 to 2,974 MPa (104,137 to 431,342 pounds per square inch [psi]) (left M3 of BHI 4100 and right M5 of MOR 980, respectively) (Supplementary Table S2)."
Like I said before, I'm not really defending stuff anymore. I'm not even talking about my calculations from a year ago (that Aurelius decided to respond to that is another case of a person quoting stuff I said a while back under the assumption that I fully believe it now). I'm just confused. Even if you take that 718 MPa figure Gignac & Erickson calculated that's well above the 385 MPa upper bound compressive strength of enamel, and even more above the strength of bone.
I'm confused, even that minimum tooth pressure should be enough to then destroy the enamel tips of T. rex's teeth. Do all animals biting into bone (even though there's definitely variation into how hard they bite relatively speaking and whatnot) generate the same pressures, just enough to break bone but not enough to break their own teeth?
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Post by theropod on Sept 8, 2018 19:24:13 GMT 5
Yes, no matter how you slice, it a tooth cannot excert a pressure that exceeds its own compressive strength. Actually, it cannot excert a pressure on bone that is greater than the bone’s compressive strength either, because if that compressive strength is exceeded, the bone will simply disintegrate locally until the pressure and strength properties even out. You simply cannot use a structural element to apply a pressure greater than that element can withstand. If you try to put 700MPa on a tooth tip, that tooth tip will shatter when its maximum compressive strength is exceeded (assuming that there is no bending moment whatsoever, otherwise it will be earlier). However, that only works if you push the tooth against something stronger than enamel. If, like bone, the other material is weaker, the tooth will penetrate, exactly so deep that the larger area will make the pressure drop below the strength of the mmaterial.
That’s for compression, shear works very differently (the strength is proportional to the cross-sectional area of the structure in the same plane as the acting force, not the surface area of contact perpendicular to it). That’s why to shear a whole bone in half, you will need a much greater amount of force than to simply penetrate with a single tooth tip. That is also why I can push the tip of my knife into the surface of a bone without being able to excert the equivalent of a T. rex bite force, or enough force to break the entire bone in half.
We also have to keep in mind the area over which the pressure is applied. The tooth pressure figures from Gignac & Erickson are the result of applying the bite force to a single tooth tip (at 1mm of crown height), so an extremely small area. For starters, the number of teeth is unrealistic. There’s almost no scenario where a T. rex biting something wouldn’t make contact with at least a few at once. But 1mm is also a very small penetration depth, I don’t think anybody doubts that it could penetrate bone that deeply, but its also not very impressive at all. But take a single tooth with a diameter of 4cm, and let’s for the sake of simplicity assume it is circular. This would simulate the pressure it would take to push the tooth in completely. The cross-sectional area would be (40mm/2)^2*pi=1257mm². Let’s say that’s a posterior tooth biting with the same 57KN bite force at posterior teeth originally estimated by Bates & Falkingham. And all of a sudden, the pressure drops down to only 45 N/mm², well below the compressive strength of both enamel and bone. We can take that further in order to estimate how large the diameter of a tooth would be up to which that bite force could push it into bone, all we need to know is the compressive strength of bone (let’s take 170MPa), (57*10³N)/(.5d)^2*pi)mm=170N/mm²→→((57*10³N)/170N/mm²/pi)^.5*2=d=21mm. So hypothetically, biting with just a single tooth, it could probably penetrate compact bone up to a tooth diameter of 2cm. Just eyeballing it, that seems about right when I remember the famous bite marks on the Triceratops pelvis.
This is still very simplistic though, as much of the bone bitten into would actually not be compact bone, and thus far easier to puncture, and we’d get a complex interplay of trabecular and hollow bones whose thin bone lamellae or walls would then be subjected to shear stresses and would probably fail in shear instead of compression. So that above figure only refers to a thick piece of compact bone, which I’m not sure would be actually encountered that often in life, as even thick dinosaur bones have a medullary or pneumatic cavity below relatively thin walls and/or are composed of spongiosa. But we also should not forget that this assumes the whole force is concentrated onto a single tooth, whereas in life, if a tooth penetrated that deeply there would have to be adjacent teeth making contact too.
Gignac & Erickson actually suggest that shearing was the primary mechanism by which bones were fragmented, because of the relatively low shear strength of bone, and I think that is actually an observation I have made before myself, because of the way the maxilla and maxillary dentition laterally overhang the dentary, just as in a pair of scissors. So that way, it’s the total force applied divided by the bone cross-section that matters. In reality, of course, both compression and shear forces would work in concert, teeth would first penetrate bone up to a certain depth, which would help weaken the bone (especially if done repeatedly) and provice a good grip, and at the point were the tooth pressure doesn’t bring it any further, the bone, if it is small enough, can be completely fractured by the shear forces acting between the lower and upper tooth rows.
That’s one reason why the popular reliance on essentially meaningless "psi-figures" for all sorts of strength (be that bite force, or eagle grip strength) is very stupid.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 11, 2018 6:41:54 GMT 5
I made a size comparison between the skulls of Daeodon and two tyrannosaurids, Nanuqsaurus and Lythronax, just to see how the feeding apparata of these predators compare (and to practice my rudimentary comparison creation skills). Well, rather, I used a skull size comparison theropod made a while back and posted into the Nanuqsaurus profile here and added a Daeodon skull in to scale. Daeodon's skull is scaled to 90 cm long. Does this look right?
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jan 10, 2019 20:41:37 GMT 5
A new paper about exceptional adaptive changes in bite force. Most animals, it seems, don't show rapid and strong selection for bite force, even including some powerful biting macropredators (although, according to their supplementary information, felids, chiropteran subclades, and all dinosaurs showed some degree of elevated rates in the posterior sample (i.e. >50%), just not at the 95% threshold). royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2018.1932
Gonna go back to T. rex vs. jaguar bite force. So, I have Sakamoto et al.'s data for bite force and body mass. I used the bite force estimates that they themselves made, being the most recent (and probably only) study in which direct comparison between the two species can be made. So, the jaguar specimen they examined for their own estimate weighed 97 kg. The maximum bite force they estimated for it (F_Bite2) was 2,026.300331 Newtons. There was also F_Bite1, which, in Sakamoto's words in an email response to me, is " ...the maximum functional bite force for that entry, which corresponds to bite force that is important in procuring/killing prey. That is, the bite force for the “killing” bite in the case of predators and crushing bites for seed eaters and maybe bone crushers. Typically, these will be canine-biting for most carnivores, and anterior biting positions for dinosaurs." For the jaguar, this "functional bite force" was 1,392.903906 N. There were two Tyrannosaurus specimens Sakamoto et al. used for their own estimate, BHI 3033 (Stan) and AMNH 5027; both are estimated at 8,385 kg. I don't buy this, considering this rivals Sue in body mass (this comes from Hutchinson et al., 2011). blaze once did a GDI of Stan and got almost 7t (theropod specified some 6.9t or so). Likewise, Asier Larramendi did a GDI on it that resulted in ~6.5t when assuming a density of 0.95 kg/liter; adjusting it to ~0.915 kg/liter (apparently the approximate value for Scott Hartman's theropod GDI models) we get ~6.26t for Stan ( see the comments section below). Because the size of Stan's skull and jaw muscles stays constant here, either it's got a proportionately smaller head the larger its whole body is, resulting in a proportionately weak er bite, or it's got a proportionately larger head the smaller its whole body is, resulting in a proportionately strong er bite. So now that that's set, scaling our 97 kg jaguar up to 6.26 tonnes... ((cube root of (6260/97)) 2)*2026.300331 ...we get a maximum bite force of 32,601.5975 N. Using F_Bite1 we get 22,410.74129 N. How hard did Stan bite in comparison? With a maximum force of 45,379.51362 N (F_Bite2); F_Bite1 was 29,816.96361 N. Interestingly, they calculated AMNH 5027 to have bitten even harder than Stan ( 48,505.14364 N for F_Bite2, 31,870.63821 N for F_Bite1). Now let's try Franoys' estimate of 7,722 kg for Stan. ((cube root of (7722/97) 2)*2026.300331 ...we get 37,498.09376639718 N max and 25,776.65337940908 N using F_Bite1. Even scaling the jaguar up to 8,385 kg, as per the estimate Sakamoto et al. used for Stan... ((cube root of (8385/97) 2)*2026.300331 ...we get 39,614.85195 N max and 27,231.73913 N using F_Bite1.
Edit: I wanted to see what numbers we'd get if we scaled according to skull length as opposed to body size, as the skull is the actual thing producing the force of the bite. According to the data in Sakamoto et al.'s supplementary material a 97 kg jaguar has a skull ~22.7 cm in length. Let's scale this up to the inflated mass Sakamoto uses for Stan: (cube root of (8385/97))*22.7= 100.369779 cm skullNow that we know how big an 8.385t jaguar's skull is, let's use this to find bite force. ((100.369779/22.7) 2)*2026.300331= 39,614.85191 N. And because I don't believe that Stan was as massive as Hartman's Sue: (cube root of (6260/97))*22.7= 91.05281775 cm skull((91.05281775/22.7) 2)*2026.300331= 32,601.5975 N. Or alternatively: (cube root of (7722/97))*22.7= 97.65141593 cm skull((97.65141593/22.7) 2)*2026.300331= 37,498.09377 N. Oh wow, we end up with pretty much the exact same values for bite force using skull length as we did using when body mass (keep in mind, this is F_Bite2). So yeah, I think my calculations above using body mass hold up. Btw, the skull length and body mass figures for the jaguar were stated to come from Sakamoto et al. (2010), which I assume is this paper->.... So, in conclusion, Tyrannosaurus seems to bite about as hard, if not harder, for its size compared to a jaguar. And yes, their own bite force estimates for the two were the same (labeled 'this study', as opposed to a previous work), the dry skull method. So even if these numbers aren't accurate in absolute terms, they should at least give us a pretty good idea of how hard these animals would bite relative to each other. I couldn't tell whether or not Sakamoto et al. considered the jaguar (and other felids) to have had exceptionally powerful bites or not. Their text and figures suggested they didn't, or at least not to the same extent as say, the large ground finch. Yet not too long ago, I had emailed Sakamoto my questions about this paper, and he considered the jaguar to have had an exceptionally powerful bite for its size, in light of his paper's findings. Evidently, if the jaguar has an exceptionally powerful bite for its size, then so does Tyrannosaurus. Even more so, in fact. On the converse, if Tyrannosaurus has a more or less "average" bite force for its size, then so does the jaguar. Even more so, in fact. Also, I didn't drill it through my skull then that the jaguar really deserves to be brought up among the hard-biting, durophagous predators (other conical toothed macropredaceous cats probably aren't too far behind, either). I reckon T. rex does too...to the surprise of literally no one.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 1, 2019 20:17:36 GMT 5
Smok wawelski was a bone crusher. www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-37540-4Would anyone care to assist me in finding any scientific article regarding the bite force of H. horridus? I've only gotten a Tapatalk page (to another AvA forum) that provides any information about an actual scientific bite force estimate. It does reference some stuff Stephen Wroe did with H. horridus (which can be seen in the documentary Prehistoric Predators), so this is indeed legit, but I don't think I've been able to find the actual study online.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 17, 2019 9:22:48 GMT 5
Some information about the thylacine. beta.capeia.com/zoology/2016/09/07/thylacine-the-improbable-tigerThat thylacine canine teeth were more ovoid, and therefore stronger mediolaterally than most canid canine teeth, is supported by Jones & Stoddart (1998). s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/34415463/-predatory_behaviour_thylacine.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1552799709&Signature=mdTkUfY2NXuSyzdmvegm9oCHi9o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3Dpredatory_behaviour_thylacine.pdfThe thylacine's ability to kill animals like sheep (as had been claimed while it was still extant) has been questioned with findings suggesting that its jaw was too structurally weak to handle the stresses of large struggling prey (Attard et al., 2011). But even if this was true, a couple things need to be considered regarding sheep. As the Thylacine Museum (hyperlinked) website points out, the average size of Merino lambs up to 90 days old is less than the average weight of an adult thylacine at 29.5 kg (though, the average size for 90 day old lambs isn't much less than this), and so they could easily have been preyed upon. Second, one apparent idiosyncrasy of sheep is that when they are chased, they lie down. Dogs have been known to exploit this behavior and kill pursued sheep that lie down; a thylacine could do the same without having to cope with any struggle from a lying sheep. According to contemporary descriptions (again, from the Thylacine Museum website), the thylacine made continuous, powerful snapping bites as opposed to biting, holding, and shaking (more analogous to jackals and a dog breed known as curs than they were to say, a bulldog), which I think would be consistent with the animal having a specific method of avoiding structural failure of its jaw if it really was relatively weak (along with the capability to deliver a precise bite, as per the first excerpt in this post). It has supposedly worked against large hunting dogs (and to lethal effect at that) and adult humans, which I hope I don't need to remind everyone are much larger than thylacines were. It appears that, while the thylacine would have preferred prey that was smaller than itself given the functional morphology of its feeding apparatus, it could and would still deliver powerful bites to large animals, even those larger than itself (i.e. humans), in retaliation if needed. EDIT 01/10/2022: One of the excerpts above states that thylacines occasionally killed hunting dogs in self defense. Here is one such account ( source).
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 28, 2019 7:15:16 GMT 5
So, from what I can tell, there is a theory that says that the synapsid and diapsid temporal openings created more space for the jaw adductors (specifically the temporal muscles) to expand outwards and not squeeze the brain, something the anapsid condition did not allow (so larger, stronger jaw muscles did not allow a large brain to exist, and a large brain would not allow large, strong jaw muscles that would squeeze it to exist).
But if this is the case (and if not, correct me if I'm wrong), why did diapsids evolve two holes and synapsids just one?
Also, kind of unrelated question, do anapsids actually form a monophyletic clade, or is the term better used to describe a skull condition?
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Post by theropod on Mar 28, 2019 12:58:25 GMT 5
If we mean it to include all Amniotes with the anapsid skull condition, it would be polyphyletic or at best paraphyletic. I think there was talk of a parareptile-turtle-clade, but the current state of things seems to be that turtles are pretty likely to be diapsids.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 5, 2019 19:39:43 GMT 5
From Bob Bakker's blog: this is how mammoth (and modern elephant) teeth compare to those of mastodons. blog.hmns.org/2012/05/a-new-lady-in-town-part-i-why-priscilla-the-mastodon-isnt-a-mammoth-at-all/From what I can tell (i.e. looking at the references on Wikipedia), other lines of evidence indeed support more of a browsing diet in mastodons as opposed to grazing on stuff like grass. There was an analysis that suggests that mastodons were eating a lot more grass than thought based off of preserved dental calculus ( link). However, as has been pointed out, that doesn't necessarily prove a preference for, or a substantial reliance on grass, as grass has hardened cells (phytoliths) that are much more likely to withstand chewing than those of browse, and are therefore much more likely to preserve and detect. At the least, if what Bakker says about how well mastodon dentition compares to elephantid dentition in terms of resistance to long-term wear is true, grass may not hurt up to a point, but I can't see mastodons being the mixed feeders that modern elephants, and hence probably mammoths, are/were.
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Post by theropod on Apr 6, 2019 0:41:46 GMT 5
^Well, maybe mixed feeders, but only on softer types of vegetation. Humans are mixed feeders, just not specialized for high-fiber herbivory.
I also don’t think it’s a matter of grass damaging the teeth so much as the teeth simply not being equipped to efficiently process it. I mean obviously if the animal were to eat huge amounts of grass it would wear down the teeth, as it does in other grazers that chew, but it wouldn’t even get to that point because it probably couldn’t supply itself with sufficient calories.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 15, 2019 5:08:14 GMT 5
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Post by theropod on Apr 24, 2019 22:17:22 GMT 5
Badgers ( Meles meles) have really weird jaw joints, the dentary condyle is enclosed and locked in place, so it can’t be disarticulated without breaking the joint, even when skeletonized. Presumably this reinforced joint would make it very hard to dislocate in life. The flipside, as is particularly easy to measure in this case, is that the gape angle that can be achieved is severely limited, the maximum is about 45° between the ends of the jaws, and only 28° between the tips of the canines and the jaw joint: I don’t know if or to what degree this might apply to other mustelids or how much variation there is, just thought I’d share it, since it might be relevant when discussing their predatory capabilities (that being said, of course badgers are less carnivorous than other mustelids, so they might be uniquely specialized).
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