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Post by Venomous Dragon on Mar 11, 2016 13:35:53 GMT 5
seems to support my point
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stomatopod
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Post by stomatopod on Mar 11, 2016 15:04:38 GMT 5
If you suffer from cognitive dissonance, then yes.
Domestic dogs sit between two clades of Gray Wolves. The subpopulation which the dog derives from is largely extinct, as wolves underwent a recent genetic bottleneck. The LGM and humans certainly did not help.
Only a few uniparental markers seem to be leftovers.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Mar 11, 2016 16:14:27 GMT 5
If you suffer from cognitive dissonance, then yes. Domestic dogs sit between two clades of Gray Wolves. The subpopulation which the dog derives from is largely extinct, as wolves underwent a recent genetic bottleneck. The LGM and humans certainly did not help. Only a few uniparental markers seem to be leftovers. Do not berate my mental faculties again. You are clearly suffering from a confirmation bias (not saying I'm not but I'm not being haughty about it). You read the abstract and see it as a divergence into clades, I read it, compare it with other findings, acknowledged the muddled and admixed nature of the entire genus and see it as a conformation of a taimyr wolf divergence theory, which has dogs and grey wolves splitting off from a common ancestor some 30000 years ago belonging to the same clade within Canis (one with a long history of admixture that is infact only going get worse) opposed to the same species. |
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stomatopod
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Post by stomatopod on Mar 11, 2016 17:50:13 GMT 5
I actually read the entire paper.
The paper clearly states that dogs are not their own species, and you claim that it reinforced your point, which is clearly false, hence my not so endearing words.
The dog is nested within C. lupus, there is no way around it.
Eurasian C. lupus already are closer to Dogs than to American C. lupus.
Normally I am more of a splitter but this goes to far by an order of magnitude.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Mar 11, 2016 23:35:25 GMT 5
I actually read the entire paper. The paper clearly states that dogs are not their own species, and you claim that it reinforced your point, which is clearly false, hence my not so endearing words. The dog is nested within C. lupus, there is no way around it. Eurasian C. lupus already are closer to Dogs than to American C. lupus. Normally I am more of a splitter but this goes to far by an order of magnitude. And you don't think that might have something to do with extensive admixture, like the kind that leads them to say Eurasian Wolves owe 25%of their ancestry to dogs? but still the article itself states no single grey wolf population is closer related to the dog than any other, that in of itself should tell you their conclusion could easily be dismissed as how does that make any sense if new world wolves diverged first? Again any two dogs from anywhere on the planet are closer related to one another than they are to any single wolf population even if that dog spent thousands of years isolated ie the dingo. This ultimately comes down to 1 factor and that is if you believe the animal the dog and the wolf diverged from was the same species as the modern grey wolf and even then I would argue only admixture has kept the animals together. |
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Oct 31, 2016 6:05:42 GMT 5
Didn't know where else to put this but  " A pack of nine domestic dogs were spotted recently on the S3 near the Kruger National Park (KNP) by Samuel Breisacher and his uncle Daniel Waldis. The dogs were chasing a jackal.
Breisacher said these dogs might have crossed over into the KNP from the Cork community. They crossed the dry Sabie River into the park. The sighting was reported to rangers that Breisacher luckily bumped into on the S3.
“I could see the rangers were shocked and worried. They immediately radioed for help and left in a hurry,” he said. “‘I have never seen something like this. The dogs were very focused and showed the same behaviour as wild dogs. It is not good at all that they were in the park because they might have diseases and pass that on to the other animals, especially the wild dogs,” said Breisacher.
Breisacher is a chocolatier from Stellenbosch and his main chocolate brand, Le Chocolatier, is sold in the retail outlets in the camps so he frequents the KNP often. He is a dedicated conservationist. One of his other chocolate brands, Big 5, is designed to further the cause of saving endangered rhinos. A portion of the profit goes towards Unite Against Poaching.
Dr Kelly Marnewick, manager of Endangered Wildlife Trust’s Carnivore Conservation Programme, is currently busy with Grant Beverley, field officer for the EWT’s Kruger Park Wild Dog Project. They are darting and inoculating wild dogs in the KNP against distemper and other diseases. She said there is a danger of passing diseases on if dogs like these come into contact with wild dogs during a fight."Since May seven packs of wild dogs have been vaccinated. It is estimated by Marnewick that there are only 300 of them left in the KNP, and only 500 in South Africa. “It is difficult to say if these dogs would be able to reach the wild dogs, but it is a real risk if they do get to a pack that has not been vaccinated,” said Marnewick. As recently as 13 May 2016 a pack of wild dogs was found dead with distemper, a dog disease caused by a virus found in domestic canines. The virus had wiped out the pack within 48 hours of it being detected, indicating an incredibly vicious strain. Canine distemper quickly attacks the nervous system and causes discharge from the eyes and nose, excessive diarrhoea, lung damage, vomiting and eventual death. There was an outcry on Facebook when Breisacher mentioned his sighting. Regular Kruger visitors stated that the dogs belong to poachers, who use them in packs to hunt down animals in the areas around their communities for subsistence living and to sell to bush butcheries. Mr Wiliam Mabasa, acting head of communications at SANParks, said the dogs will be put down if they are found in the park. “The danger remains that rabies could be passed on to other animals if these dogs are disease-ridden.” A dog with rabies was recently put down in White River by the SPCA. White River is about an hour’s drive from the community that Breisacher thinks the dogs hailed from africageographic.com/blog/pack-rogue-domestic-dogs-chase-animals-kruger/ |
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full
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Post by full on Nov 4, 2016 4:12:40 GMT 5
Great find Cerato, even though lots of people are aware of the prevalence of feral dogs in African parks not many go as in depth as that one on their impact. On another dog related note, a funny thing happened today. Weather has been shitty for two weeks now, nothing but rain and wind, so my mate decides to make the best of a bad lot and takes his dog out for a walk, despite the precipitation. Soon as he lets him off leash the dog just turns around and books it straight home  by the time he got back the dog was at the door waiting to be let back in. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 4, 2016 4:28:10 GMT 5
Great find Cerato, even though lots of people are aware of the prevalence of feral dogs in African parks not many go as in depth as that one on their impact. On another dog related note, a funny thing happened today. Weather has been shitty for two weeks now, nothing but rain and wind, so my mate decides to make the best of a bad lot and takes his dog out for a walk, despite the precipitation. Soon as he lets him off leash the dog just turns around and books it straight home by the time he got back the dog was at the door waiting to be let back in. have the exact opposite problem, my dog gets off his lead and he runs off to dick around. recently he terrified an elderly couple by running up to say hi, my dog is a menace apparently because he has a big head. |
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full
Junior Member
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Post by full on Nov 4, 2016 15:12:25 GMT 5
Great find Cerato, even though lots of people are aware of the prevalence of feral dogs in African parks not many go as in depth as that one on their impact. On another dog related note, a funny thing happened today. Weather has been shitty for two weeks now, nothing but rain and wind, so my mate decides to make the best of a bad lot and takes his dog out for a walk, despite the precipitation. Soon as he lets him off leash the dog just turns around and books it straight home by the time he got back the dog was at the door waiting to be let back in. have the exact opposite problem, my dog gets off his lead and he runs off to dick around. recently he terrified an elderly couple by running up to say hi, my dog is a menace apparently because he has a big head. As a former owner of a Bullmastiff I can relate, people with dogs would sometimes cross the road to avoid us, the irony is she was one of the most chilled out dogs you'd ever meet, she'd hardly even acknowledge other dogs until they were right in her face. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 5, 2016 3:33:35 GMT 5
have the exact opposite problem, my dog gets off his lead and he runs off to dick around. recently he terrified an elderly couple by running up to say hi, my dog is a menace apparently because he has a big head. As a former owner of a Bullmastiff I can relate, people with dogs would sometimes cross the road to avoid us, the irony is she was one of the most chilled out dogs you'd ever meet, she'd hardly even acknowledge other dogs until they were right in her face. i have also had people cross the road, i dont usually have a problem with this because my female bullies other dogs and isnt very friendly with stranger, irony there is lots of people want to come up and say pet her. |
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full
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Post by full on Nov 5, 2016 20:37:35 GMT 5
As a former owner of a Bullmastiff I can relate, people with dogs would sometimes cross the road to avoid us, the irony is she was one of the most chilled out dogs you'd ever meet, she'd hardly even acknowledge other dogs until they were right in her face. i have also had people cross the road, i dont usually have a problem with this because my female bullies other dogs and isnt very friendly with stranger, irony there is lots of people want to come up and say pet her. I really do find breed stigma really bizarre. Obviously there's no changing it, it's fully ingrained in the public consciousness but I've always held the view a dog's a dog's a dog, i'll never go out of my way to avoid any dog just based on it's aesthetics/heritage, no doubt that's due to my upbringing and how many dogs I've been around and interacted with, but I legitimately know a person who point blank refuse to pet German shepherds because his parents always told him they were vicious, it's so odd to me. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2016 1:15:48 GMT 5
i have also had people cross the road, i dont usually have a problem with this because my female bullies other dogs and isnt very friendly with stranger, irony there is lots of people want to come up and say pet her. I really do find breed stigma really bizarre. Obviously there's no changing it, it's fully ingrained in the public consciousness but I've always held the view a dog's a dog's a dog, i'll never go out of my way to avoid any dog just based on it's aesthetics/heritage, no doubt that's due to my upbringing and how many dogs I've been around and interacted with, but I legitimately know a person who point blank refuse to pet German shepherds because his parents always told him they were vicious, it's so odd to me. I absolutely agree my mother is oddly enough in love with bully and mastiff breeds but despises Dobermans and Dalmatians I don't understand how see can totally reject one set of breed stigmas but totally embrace others. It also reminds of a time I saw two dogs scrap and one of the onlookers started berating the owners for animal cruelty, what? They didn't set this up you idiot. For an animal that interacts with so many people it amazes me how little most actually understand them. |
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full
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Post by full on Nov 6, 2016 3:21:53 GMT 5
I really do find breed stigma really bizarre. Obviously there's no changing it, it's fully ingrained in the public consciousness but I've always held the view a dog's a dog's a dog, i'll never go out of my way to avoid any dog just based on it's aesthetics/heritage, no doubt that's due to my upbringing and how many dogs I've been around and interacted with, but I legitimately know a person who point blank refuse to pet German shepherds because his parents always told him they were vicious, it's so odd to me. I absolutely agree my mother is oddly enough in love with bully and mastiff breeds but despises Dobermans and Dalmatians I don't understand how see can totally reject one set of breed stigmas but totally embrace others. It also reminds of a time I saw two dogs scrap and one of the onlookers started berating the owners for animal cruelty, what? They didn't set this up you idiot. For an animal that interacts with so many people it amazes me how little most actually understand them. It's so odd isn't it? That same guy was completely cool around my Bullmastiff and other peoples Staffs and Rotts but just wouldn't entertain the idea of getting too close to a GSD, so weird man. It's funny you mention about your mother though, I've only known two Dalmatians personally and neither was a very temperamentally sound dog, the first was ridiculously highly strung and snappy around other dogs and the other one belonged to my mothers former boss, it turned around one day and bit his wife pretty badly on the hand, maybe she's on to something. They're cool looking for sure though. Did your boy ever get around to that second litter? I remember the Dam being very good looking and athletic. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 6, 2016 6:26:38 GMT 5
I absolutely agree my mother is oddly enough in love with bully and mastiff breeds but despises Dobermans and Dalmatians I don't understand how see can totally reject one set of breed stigmas but totally embrace others. It also reminds of a time I saw two dogs scrap and one of the onlookers started berating the owners for animal cruelty, what? They didn't set this up you idiot. For an animal that interacts with so many people it amazes me how little most actually understand them. It's so odd isn't it? That same guy was completely cool around my Bullmastiff and other peoples Staffs and Rotts but just wouldn't entertain the idea of getting too close to a GSD, so weird man. It's funny you mention about your mother though, I've only known two Dalmatians personally and neither was a very temperamentally sound dog, the first was ridiculously highly strung and snappy around other dogs and the other one belonged to my mothers former boss, it turned around one day and bit his wife pretty badly on the hand, maybe she's on to something. They're cool looking for sure though. Did your boy ever get around to that second litter? I remember the Dam being very good looking and athletic. Admittedly I have never been around a dalmatian, in no small part because as a kid my mother wouldn't allow it. Yeah she had 12 puppies about a month ago. |
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full
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Post by full on Nov 7, 2016 0:15:37 GMT 5
It's so odd isn't it? That same guy was completely cool around my Bullmastiff and other peoples Staffs and Rotts but just wouldn't entertain the idea of getting too close to a GSD, so weird man. It's funny you mention about your mother though, I've only known two Dalmatians personally and neither was a very temperamentally sound dog, the first was ridiculously highly strung and snappy around other dogs and the other one belonged to my mothers former boss, it turned around one day and bit his wife pretty badly on the hand, maybe she's on to something. They're cool looking for sure though. Did your boy ever get around to that second litter? I remember the Dam being very good looking and athletic. Admittedly I have never been around a dalmatian, in no small part because as a kid my mother wouldn't allow it. Yeah she had 12 puppies about a month ago. Cool, you should post some pics, 12 is a really big litter. |
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by the time he got back the dog was at the door waiting to be let back in.