Spotted Hyena vs. Ostrich

[Infinity Blade]

Spotted Hyena-Crocuta crocuta



Ostrich-Struthio camelus

[full]

I don't think an ostrich is beyond a lone hyena's capability, the really difficult part would be catching the bird, but this is a feat hunting dogs have achieved so I think a hyena would be capable of it too. 

In terms of the sheer potency of their weapons the ostrich has to rely on kicks, which, whilst undoubtedly powerful/painful can not be wielded as effectively as they hyenas jaws. 

[Carcharodon]

I think the hyena wins.

[Infinity Blade]

May 1, 2016 19:45:19 GMT 5 full said:

I don't think an ostrich is beyond a lone hyena's capability, the really difficult part would be catching the bird, but this is a feat hunting dogs have achieved so I think a hyena would be capable of it too. 

In terms of the sheer potency of their weapons the ostrich has to rely on kicks, which, whilst undoubtedly powerful/painful can not be wielded as effectively as they hyenas jaws. 

What breed of hunting dogs were they and how fast would they be? Ostriches can easily get to ~60km/h, although I've read a few times that that is merely a long sustained speed and that they can reach short bursts of ~70km/h. Can anyone provide a reliable source for this?

I'd like to see the opinion of someone like theropod here. Ratites can do a number on humans (break bones, lacerations, etc.), and while I know humans are not comparable to hyenas, I still think the ostrich could cause serious injury to the carnivoran if it really wanted to.

[full]

May 1, 2016 20:56:01 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

May 1, 2016 19:45:19 GMT 5 full said:

I don't think an ostrich is beyond a lone hyena's capability, the really difficult part would be catching the bird, but this is a feat hunting dogs have achieved so I think a hyena would be capable of it too. 

In terms of the sheer potency of their weapons the ostrich has to rely on kicks, which, whilst undoubtedly powerful/painful can not be wielded as effectively as they hyenas jaws. 

What breed of hunting dogs were they and how fast would they be? Ostriches can easily get to ~60km/h, although I've read a few times that that is merely a long sustained speed and that they can reach short bursts of ~70km/h. Can anyone provide a reliable source for this?

I'd like to see the opinion of someone like theropod here. Ratites can do a number on humans (break bones, lacerations, etc.), and while I know humans are not comparable to hyenas, I still think the ostrich could cause serious injury to the carnivoran if it really wanted to.

They were boergreyhounds (basically purpose bred sighthounds with varying degrees of greyhound, deerhound, wolfhound and gripping/scenting breeds in their admixture) they were able to keep up a sustained chase then bay the bird.



Ratites undoubtedly do have some serious power in those kicks,but even then they are not as effective as the kicks of the ungulates that lone hyenas predate simply because they cannot kick backwards so they lack that full range of mobility and defense against a rear attack.

IMO given the fact that single hyenas have bought down more stable quadrupedal ungulates that have a wider plane of defense I don't think an ostrich would be impossible. 

[creature386]

What about these claims like ostriches killing hyenas or even lions? I'm hugely skeptical about them, but Darren Naish seems to believe in them:

Ozbert, donated by a British ostrich farm, was huge, tipping the scales (when plucked) at 129 kg (the world record is supposedly 160 kg) [scales shown below]. Ostrich feathers presumably account for about the same percentage of mass as they do in emus (c. 7.5%), so Ozbert would have been a bit heavier when alive. Ozbert’s untimely death came as a result of combat with another male: he was kicked, fatally, at the base of the neck, and you can see the resulting neck injury in one of the photos below. The ability of ostriches to kill lions and hyenas by kicking is pretty well known, and captive specimens have at least tried to kill people in the same way too. Evidently, ostriches can also kill other ostriches. Not surprising given their hindlimb musculature, on which read on…

scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2009/05/04/dissecting-ozbert-the-ostrich/

[Infinity Blade]

They were boergreyhounds (basically purpose bred sighthounds with varying degrees of greyhound, deerhound, wolfhound and gripping/scenting breeds in their admixture) they were able to keep up a sustained chase then bay the bird.

I looked them up, and these dogs look very specialized for speed. If ostriches can indeed reach short bursts of ~70 km/h as often claimed, I'm not sure that because these dogs can catch the birds that a hyena could as well.

Ratites undoubtedly do have some serious power in those kicks,but even then they are not as effective as the kicks of the ungulates that lone hyenas predate simply because they cannot kick backwards so they lack that full range of mobility and defense against a rear attack.

I disagree. Ostriches cannot kick backwards, but how many of these ungulates have been documented kicking forward like a ratite with either the fore or hindlimbs (if they can even do it with the latter)? I haven't seen every ungulate I know do this. So if they really don't, then I'd say many if not most ungulates would be just as vulnerable as an ostrich with a predator behind it if a predator bypassed the backward-kicking hindlimbs and went for the flanks.

Also, if anything, since the ostrich is attacking forward, shouldn't it be easier for it to keep an eye on the hyena than for an ungulate attacking something from behind it?

IMO given the fact that single hyenas have bought down more stable quadrupedal ungulates that have a wider plane of defense I don't think an ostrich would be impossible.

I agree a hyena could take down an ostrich. But I've already given my thoughts on ungulate vs. ratite kicks. As for stability, how much does it really matter here? Do hyenas physically and literally bring down their prey by taking advantage of their prey's stability?

[Infinity Blade]

May 1, 2016 22:56:36 GMT 5 creature386 said:

What about these claims like ostriches killing hyenas or even lions? I'm hugely skeptical about them, but Darren Naish seems to believe in them:

Ozbert, donated by a British ostrich farm, was huge, tipping the scales (when plucked) at 129 kg (the world record is supposedly 160 kg) [scales shown below]. Ostrich feathers presumably account for about the same percentage of mass as they do in emus (c. 7.5%), so Ozbert would have been a bit heavier when alive. Ozbert’s untimely death came as a result of combat with another male: he was kicked, fatally, at the base of the neck, and you can see the resulting neck injury in one of the photos below. The ability of ostriches to kill lions and hyenas by kicking is pretty well known, and captive specimens have at least tried to kill people in the same way too. Evidently, ostriches can also kill other ostriches. Not surprising given their hindlimb musculature, on which read on…

scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2009/05/04/dissecting-ozbert-the-ostrich/

I'm wondering/skeptical about that too.

In the paper request thread, I asked for a full PDF of the source John Ostrom cited (in his Deinonychus paper) for his claim that an ostrich kick could "rip open" a man or even a lion. It was Birds of the World by Oliver L. Austin Jr. I was hoping to see if the book goes into any further elaboration on this or not.

[full]

May 1, 2016 23:21:04 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

They were boergreyhounds (basically purpose bred sighthounds with varying degrees of greyhound, deerhound, wolfhound and gripping/scenting breeds in their admixture) they were able to keep up a sustained chase then bay the bird.

I looked them up, and these dogs look very specialized for speed. If ostriches can indeed reach short bursts of ~70 km/h as often claimed, I'm not sure that because these dogs can catch the birds that a hyena could as well.

Ratites undoubtedly do have some serious power in those kicks,but even then they are not as effective as the kicks of the ungulates that lone hyenas predate simply because they cannot kick backwards so they lack that full range of mobility and defense against a rear attack.

I disagree. Ostriches cannot kick backwards, but how many of these ungulates have been documented kicking forward like a ratite with either the fore or hindlimbs (if they can even do it with the latter)? I haven't seen every ungulate I know do this. So if they really don't, then I'd say many if not most ungulates would be just as vulnerable as an ostrich with a predator behind it if a predator bypassed the backward-kicking hindlimbs and went for the flanks.

Also, if anything, since the ostrich is attacking forward, shouldn't it be easier for it to keep an eye on the hyena than for an ungulate attacking something from behind it?

IMO given the fact that single hyenas have bought down more stable quadrupedal ungulates that have a wider plane of defense I don't think an ostrich would be impossible.

I agree a hyena could take down an ostrich. But I've already given my thoughts on ungulate vs. ratite kicks. As for stability, how much does it really matter here? Do hyenas physically and literally bring down their prey by taking advantage of their prey's stability?

I don't really know what you mean by "they don't look specialized for speed", I mean, they're sighthounds, so speed is a pretty big part of the game, but aesthetics aside these dogs have both the speed and the endurance to keep pace with an ostrich over a prolonged chase, while  the hyena may not have the same velocity it it probably exceeds them in terms of stamina, so I don't believe pursuit would be an issue. Also, I never stated the dogs caught or engaged the ostrich, to my knowledge they are primarily used to bring them to bay for relocation.

I actually disagree with the forward kicks being more effective, in the proposed chase scenario it basically means the ostrich's only hope would be flight, if the hyena or those dogs were to employ their typical hunting strategy of targeting flanks/hindquarters the ostrich is much more vulnerable than an ungulate of comparable size in a chase scenario.

Facing your opponent is undeniably advantageous, but in such scenarios hyenas manage to evade charges, hooves and horns of other prey wearing it down until an opening appears. In terms of forward facing defense the hyenas prey, while not kicking forward in the same manner as a ratite they are often equpied with horns, tusks and other such offensive weapon, so hyenas aren't unaccustomed to evading frontal strikes by prey. 

When dispatching prey hyenas aren't relying solely on a prey animals stability, they are seeking to cause mechanical damage sufficient enough to allow feeding with minimized struggling, but by dragging your quarry to the ground you gain an advantage, and the fact that hyenas are physically capable of pulling bull wildebeest and topi to the ground does show that they are capable of destabilizing large animals.  

[creature386]

Infinity Blade
Here is the relevant part:

Horribly undetailed and no example/reference given, so I guess it hardly helps us.

[Infinity Blade]

I don't really know what you mean by "they don't look specialized for speed"

I said they DO look (very) specialized for speed. As in, they look really streamlined in addition to the cursorial adaptations canids have, hence these dogs "look very specialized for speed".

I mean, they're sighthounds, so speed is a pretty big part of the game, but aesthetics aside these dogs have both the speed and the endurance to keep pace with an ostrich over a prolonged chase, while the hyena may not have the same velocity it it probably exceeds them in terms of stamina, so I don't believe pursuit would be an issue.

I don't think I agree. If a hyena is unable to achieve the same maximal running speed as a boer greyhound in order to give it the initial speed to catch up with the bird, then what real use would its superior stamina be?

Also, I never stated the dogs caught or engaged the ostrich, to my knowledge they are primarily used to bring them to bay for relocation.

Earlier on it looked like you implied that they did.

I don't think an ostrich is beyond a lone hyena's capability, the really difficult part would be catching the bird, but this is a feat hunting dogs have achieved so I think a hyena would be capable of it too.

I actually disagree with the forward kicks being more effective, in the proposed chase scenario it basically means the ostrich's only hope would be flight, if the hyena or those dogs were to employ their typical hunting strategy of targeting flanks/hindquarters the ostrich is much more vulnerable than an ungulate of comparable size in a chase scenario.

That's true, but I wasn't really proposing a chase scenario. I was still imagining a fight where the hyena goes past the kicking limbs of either the ostrich or ungulate. If the hyena gets past the ostrich's front, it's free to attack its rear. If the hyena gets past the hindlimbs of an ungulate, it's free to attack its underbelly or whatever.

Facing your opponent is undeniably advantageous, but in such scenarios hyenas manage to evade charges, hooves and horns of other prey wearing it down until an opening appears. In terms of forward facing defense the hyenas prey, while not kicking forward in the same manner as a ratite they are often equpied with horns, tusks and other such offensive weapon, so hyenas aren't unaccustomed to evading frontal strikes by prey.

Oh, right, I completely forgot about goring weapons. My bad. Although, it makes me wonder if the charges and goring attempts of these ungulates are quite as swift or sudden as a limb strike.

When dispatching prey hyenas aren't relying solely on a prey animals stability, they are seeking to cause mechanical damage sufficient enough to allow feeding with minimized struggling, but by dragging your quarry to the ground you gain an advantage, and the fact that hyenas are physically capable of pulling bull wildebeest and topi to the ground does show that they are capable of destabilizing large animals.

Okay then.

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I think (actually, always thought) the hyena stands a great chance here, and who knows, maybe it'll even win more often than not. I just don't think it'll be easy.

[Infinity Blade]

May 2, 2016 0:09:06 GMT 5 creature386 said:

Infinity Blade
Here is the relevant part:

Horribly undetailed and no example/reference given, so I guess it hardly helps us.

I don't see the image.

Oep, there it is.

[creature386]

Better?

[Infinity Blade]

I already edited my post after the image started showing up.

Since Austin never went into any further detail, then I guess we have even more reason to be skeptical of claims of "ripping open lions" or so. My question is, how/where did Austin himself get this alleged notion?

[creature386]

Experts can sometimes also be prone to fallacies like relying on anecdotal evidence or not being skeptical about widespread rumors.