Hey theropod, just wanted to clarify that I appreciate your level headed response. I know this is a rather icky topic, and I want to debate you in good faith. Let me know if you think I am misconstruing your points.
Yes that was my point. The obesity issue indicates that the Israeli's aren't starving the Palestinians which would be a brutally efficent way of killing them en masse. It is possible that the current conflict may cause some significant starvation/dehydration related deaths but based on discourse I saw online I was led to believe that they were suffering from Yemen-level food shortages for most of the region's history.
Obesity does correlates with "I struggle to pay the bills" level of poverty because junk food is often cheap and convenient but I am inclined to think that a large population that is being targetted for genocide would usually be malnourished or suffering cold war North Korean levels of poverty.
Sure it's more complex than just a numbers game but Palestines population didn't just grow these past years, it is one of the fastest growing populations, which is why I shake my head when people claim that Israel are the new Nazis.
The Auschwitz concentration camp was created 7 years after Hitler rose to power. The Rwandan genocide occured between April 7th and July 15th of the same year.
www.jewishgen.org/forgottencamps/general/timeeng.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocideThe Palestinian conflict on the other hand has been going on for over 60 years. The conditions in Palestine are poor but Palestinians have a voice on the international stage, their population was growing fast, and prior to the October attack, peace talks were occuring and Palestinian workers were being accepted into the country.
It doesn't seem remotely comparable to me.
apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-united-nations-palestinian-territories-gaza-strip-0b9fbb989fc2411495afd811da4ac6d0The problem is that a lot of people think that Israel has been and is currently committing genocide and often directly compare them to Nazis. I don't know why people can't call out Israel without accusing them of genocide. Most atrocities do not qualify as genocide.
For instance, I think the USA military actions in Vietnam were messed up and we had far less justifcation to sticking our nose into their business but from what I've seen, no credible expert on the subject considers the conflict to be a genocidal one.
Yes, we should be on the look out for escalation, but let's be real, the sheer political pressure on Israel makes that scenario incredibly unlikely. I realize that Palestine's weakness and poverty also means its unlikely they will be able to raze Israel to the ground, but the issue is the leading political doesn't even conceal their desire to eradicate the jews. I think Netanyahu is a scumbag so I wouldn't be suprised if he was okay with killing all the Palestinians but I doubt he would ever admit that because it is political suicide.
Also if intent is enough to qualify as genocide than both sides are guilty of that. According to a poll conducted in September 2023 indicates that about 67 percent of people in Palestine approve of armed attacks against Israeli citzens. Keep in mind, a lot of Palestinians have to realize they are outgunned so some of them might only disapprove because of the consequences rather than ethics. Based on these numbers, the actual figure could easily be 70 percent.
I posted the source below. The specific question is Q70.
pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdfIn fairness, I don't know if a poll has been conducted on Israeli people. I would welcome that data for the sake of balance.
Now I do realize people are products of their environments. If I was raised in Palestine, I would probably also harbor some extremist beliefs. That should be acknowledged and I do sympathize with the Palestinians but that still presents a massive problem to the Israelis. The notion that the Palestinians will bury the hatchet as soon as Israel addresses and fixes its own wrong doings seems incredibly unrealistic to me.
Yeah, I am not super informed on the settler issue, but I think Israel is clearly in the wrong there. I have been very critical of them in the past because of it. In fact, I used to be more on Palestines side than Israel's due to the power disparity. The problem is the hyperbole I see in leftist circles. Speaking as a left leaning guy myself, it's rather aggravating to see people act like Israel's recent counterattack is comparable to the Nazi's invasion.
[quot]All that makes me not really feel all that much outrage when the same government is controversially being accused of genocide. They may not be doing it right now, but they sure aren’t going out of their way to put any such suspicions to rest, and there are certainly warning signs showing that this isn’t for a lack of hatred or of racism. What I think is the one important factor keeping this from happening is public opinion, both in Israel itself (Israel obviously still has a reasonably sized left that is staunchly opposed to many of the things the current government has been doing) and in the west (especially the US, Israel’s most important ally, which contributes almost 4 billion dollars to its military every year).
That’s why I think pushing "the israeli government is always right and can do whatever it wants, and any criticism of it needs to be shut down" narratives (not saying you are doing this, but I have seen too many people do exactly that) is very dangerous. The casualty numbers in every major conflict since Israel was founded are one-sided as it is, even with what probably counts as "restraint" from the israeli side, restraint intended to avoid excessive public outcry and a souring of diplomatic relations with important allies. That is of course in a reality with significant international criticism of many of the actions Israel has taken. I don’t know what the death toll would look like if people like Netanyahu felt emboldened by more domestic and international backing and less criticism for their actions.[/quote]
I realize that you have a nuanced view on the conflict, and I appreciate that you also assume the same of me. Part of the reason I am posting here is because my feed is just filled with people accusing Israel of genocide and I just feel the need to course correct.
I am not going to pretend I am an expert at modern warfare, but I think most of us agree that war is awful and brutal. In many instance I think collateral can be attributed to a lack of caring, but at the same time, even the despotic goverments can see the value of good PR. If a country could easily avoid killing civilian casualties most would do so just for the PR points.
From what I understad, in many conflicts the civilian to military causulty ratio is often 2 to 1. When the Nazi's took over France, allied bombings were estimated to have killed nearly 70,000 French civilians.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_France_during_World_War_III saw a video of an Israeli tank blow up a civilian car that was clearly backing away from them, so obviously the Israeli forces could be doing a much better job of minimzing civilian deaths but they are in a legitimate tough spot. Hamas dresses like civilians. They are fighting in a very dense urban setting and Hamas chooses to fight in places like hospitals.
Yeah the IDF could have done a better job at preventing the attacks but at the same time it sounds unreasonable to expect a country to never let its guard down. In addition, defending yourself from terrorists is easier said than done. The iron dome is great at destroying enemy rockets, however, they spend a lot more reasources maintaining it than the reasources Hamas uses to make its improvised rockets. Sure they have more money to spend but it must be infuriating to watch an obviously weaker foe constantly try to pick a fight with you and than use its citzens as a human shield.
I am sure this has been pointed out but the Jewish do have the right to be wary of hate crimes. To this day they accused of being money grubbing, machiavellian, schemers so being told that they need to be the bigger person because they are richer and more powerful must be aggravating, especially since Hamas outright states they want to destroy Israel and refuse to compromise on anything.
I am just a guy on the internet so I am not qualified to say what is the acceptable amount of civilian casualties to get rid of Hamas is, but I can't help but think that Hamas is a cancer on Palestine that needs to dealt with.
Even in some fantasy scenario where all of Israel is magically teleported to a more Jewish friendly continent do we really think that Hamas is going to dissolve peacefully? They attacked Israel even though they know Israel could stream roll them. They clearly do not care about the lives of there own civilians. Not only did they undermine peace negotiations they disguised Hamas fighters as workers and used them to plan out the October attacks.
But the problem is Hamas is the defacto leaders of Palestine and a lot of people act like they are some deeply unpopular fringe faction.
Speaking as a guy that was really ignorant of the conflict, I had no idea they were the main Palestinian political group until recently. I just assumed they were a terrorist group. That ignorance is on me, but a lot of people do act like Hamas is some tiny minority and doesn't have a decent amount of Palestinian support. I realize that they oppress people so overthrowing them is way easier said than done but Israel cannot afford to just ignore them and keep deflecting their rocket attacks.
Speaking as a Chinese American, I think Harry Trumans decision to back off from invading North Korea was the right call, but there was serious consequences. North Korea is one the most dystopian nations in the world. On top of having nukes, they are an economic bomb as well. If the North Korean goverment collapses the fleeing refugees would most likely destroy China's and South Korea's economy. Thankfully no large scale has broken out yet, but it's a scary situation and were talking about two countries comprised of the same ethnicity. South Korea is far more powerful than North Korea, but North Korea still packs enough punch to devestate SK.
We don't want Hamas or any other similar faction amassing that type of fire power.
Let's say Israel does suddenly cease the counter attack and lift the blockade. I don't think Hamas is going to willingly step down. If anything, they would try take credit for the change and try to build up their powerbase.
In addition, I doubt the Israeli voters would be okay with leaving Hamas intact. Even if Israel suddenly backed down, the right wing would probably just be galvanized and vote in somebody that promises to deal with Hamas.
Honestly, this sounds like a no-win situation to me. I don't think there is a good solution on the table.
