Megatooth Shark (C. Megalodon) Average Adult Size

[Grey]

Sam1 wrote :

while I wait for Catalina Pimiento to maybe respond and give her own oponion on Ted's arguments, I'll just note that I fully agree with his closing statement in the above post.
Mutual avoidance between these two ultimate apex predators is what I've been proposing as a general relationship from the start of this discussion.

But of course, that's being besides the point in the context where the two are intent on fighting each other.

And (as I've also stated repeatedly already), the jaw and teeth characteristics are not even the most defining aspect of this clash..the most defining aspect is Livyatan's ramming ability and the fact that it cannot be effectively countered by the shark.
Quite simply, in an equal term confrontation ,the shark is the one forced to go into defensive reaction, evading the charging whale.
Beyond that point, the whale has the initiative as it can pursue megalodon forcing it into constant retreat , because exposing the sides and back to this whale would be very dangerous, not so much from the damage of the bite per se, but actually Livyatan's ability to grip and hold onto Megalodon's hind quarters, underside and pectoral fins..fins being the most critical parts because of their vulnerability from all angles. If the whale grabs one, it should've been able to tear it off easily - and consequentially kill the meg.(causing it to drown).
And what makes all of this feasible and likely instead of just a theory imho, is whale's far superior intelligence, maneuverability and body control.

Now these are all the reasons why I would also favor any similarly sized orca or pseudorca against a gws in a head on fight..and in case of Livyatan they are only even more pronounced as it is even more suited for both ramming and gripping onto large opponents.

That pseudorca and pilot whales are avoiding the gws is just a normal and expected behaviour, all things considered. 
It has little to do with their chances in the hypothetical equal term fight.
They aren't out there recklessly and mindlessly looking for tough and dangerous fights with great whites.


p.s. Jinfengopteryx, I appreciate your time and effort here. Thanks...don't want to look biased here. So, need to acknowledge the greatest and obvious advantage of the Megalodon - gills.
Ultimately, they could make any of those fights one-sided, provided the shark is patient and cautious enough.
All it needed to do is to stay under and out of whale's reach until the opportunity for a charge and bite opened.
The question is only how long would Livyatan be able to stay alert and track the meg with his sonar, ready to face it..and would meg stick to the plan for longer than that.

Pimiento rarely responds to mail questions as she's working on several projects related to megalodon in several countries and don't expect a substantial response from her. Victor Perez is the one working on new size estimate. He will present the abstract at SVP 2018 (I have the abstract since I'm coauthor). I can tell what is the new estimated average body size for adult meg but I won't until it is presented in september.
My point is that the fossil record suggests that the megatooth shark reached superior lengths than Livyatan, although I agree it is not demonstrated beyond all doubts. That's one of the best and worst thing in paleontology, many things can change with time.

However, I was investigating that some isolated larger teeth could be suggesting larger Livyatan specimens but after reading an excellent recent paper (Gilbert 2018), it appears that even wider isolated teeth wouldn't be indicating a larger body as it is observed in modern odontocetes that tooth size still increases while the body length stops.

Not saying there were no larger Livyatan but the sheer lack of material indicating this rather suggests the holotype was in the upper range.
It would be extremely interesting to test the age of the individual using its teeth.

The problem I think is that you tend to imagine Livyatan as an overgrown orca in terms of maneuvrability and explosivity.

But biomechanical constraints would simply prevent this to be true.
I remember reading sources linked by blaze (or someone else) of the larger adult bull orcas being far more clumsy than the smaller ones and never being those displaying explosive feats during the recorded attacks.

Livyatan probably ranged between 30 and 50 tonnes and I think something slightly more maneuvrable than a bull sperm whale is the best you can envision it.

There is circumstantial evidence that the megatooth shark was an effective rammer as well. Brett Kent even suggests that it didn't even need to bite to inflict debilitating damages on its target. This is not a one sided advantage here.

I doubt that intelligence will have much impact in such a conflict when biomechanics and physical properties are so prevalent. The meg doesn't need to be supremely intelligent to know the vital parts of its adversary/target.

I stay on the claim that despite their fearsome teeth and large powerful bodies and very social habits, FKW do not seem to be superior physically than an adult GWS. I doubt any FKW would have the strength and weaponry to engage something such as Deep Blue or even a male specimen such as Apache.

Here I post a comment of Daniel Huber, shark biologist and one of the authors of the bite force studies conducted on sharks. His opinion seems to range between yours and mine.

It’s a great question, and one that we could spend hours debating without really getting anywhere because there are so many unknowns. From a purely physical perspective I’d have to go with Megalodon because of its massive bite force and maneuverability. The body proportions of Livyatan don’t really strike me as making the whale all that agile. On the other hand, you’ve definitely got to give the cognitive advantage to Livyatan. Sharks can’t compete with mammals in cognitive ability. If you add in the possibility of social behavior and pack hunting, I’d definitely give Livyatan the edge, but we just don’t know what it was up to all those years ago!!!

[Infinity Blade]

Unrelated to Megalodon's size, but I just wanted to address the ramming thing.

Why is Livyatan's ramming ability "the most defining aspect of this clash"? I'd expect that to be the case if we were talking about Physeter (at least as the whale's most defining aspect), but not Livyatan. Not with the thick jaws, large room for jaw-closing muscles on its nearly 3 meter skull, and teeth the size of 2 liter soda bottles. Especially not if Livyatan, if anything, had a relatively smaller supracranial basin, and therefore a smaller junk and spermaceti organ. This is not to say Livyatan could not and will not try to effectively ram, it certainly can and will. The point is that it's not going to be this fight's "most defining aspect".

Think about the scenario Sam described in his post:

"Quite simply, in an equal term confrontation ,the shark is the one forced to go into defensive reaction, evading the charging whale.
Beyond that point, the whale has the initiative as it can pursue megalodon forcing it into constant retreat , because exposing the sides and back to this whale would be very dangerous, not so much from the damage of the bite per se, but actually Livyatan's ability to grip and hold onto Megalodon's hind quarters, underside and pectoral fins..fins being the most critical parts because of their vulnerability from all angles. If the whale grabs one, it should've been able to tear it off easily - and consequentially kill the meg.(causing it to drown).
And what makes all of this feasible and likely instead of just a theory imho, is whale's far superior intelligence, maneuverability and body control."

What if Livyatan wanted to bite the shark instead? The scenario would pretty much be the same as above (in fact, in the description above of how the fight will go, the whale does end up biting the shark). The shark isn't any more or less able to evade such an attack as it would if Livyatan decided to ram, and both would result in a dead shark if the whale succeeded.

What if the scenario is reversed and the shark is the one who swims towards the whale to attack? Pretty much the same thing, no? Only difference is that the shark will be tearing chunks out with its teeth and huge jaws. And if O. megalodon indeed rammed its prey too, same thing, no? So why is ramming the "most defining aspect" when choosing to bite will result in just about the same thing?

I guess the only thing that's up for question with everything I've addressed and mentioned above is which is more or less able to evade an attack from the other. Sam1 suggests the whale is more maneuverable with greater body control, but it seems not everyone agrees.

[Grey]

I, and the researcher I quoted, do not think the whale would be more maneuvrable.

I think both animals would be similar in speed and maneuvrability but the shark would faster in max burst speed and the whale would have more stamina.

[Infinity Blade]

I'm not imagining an overgrown orca.
I'm logically assuming (like you also said) a more explosive and faster sperm whale.
And this actually seems to be the problem as the general perception of sperm whales is that of a sluggish and slow animal.
But the actual data tells a different story. Some sources claim a top speed of around 35km/h, that can be sustained for a impressive duration of time (about an hour).
Further, the Sperm whale IS far more maneuverable than a similarly sized shark would be, that's also a fact. It can stand in one place, it can turn in every angle while standing in place, it can swim upside down and twist around its axis. It can bend and dive straight down; it can twist upside down, bend from this position and charge straight up. A shark can't do ANY of this.

And like I described, this, combined with a powerful sonar that can track a target of megalodon's size from huge distance, definitely means that being able to use it to best advantage against the shark would take some brains..and whale definitely had that too.

Also, you again are losing perspective ..that a shark can ram, for example a GWS bumping into seal and knocking him out, doesn't turn a shark into a ramming machine.
And a sperm whale is a ramming machine.
There's a lengthy study about SW ramming potential I posted in this thread a long while ago, pretty sure you remember it.
Anyway, in short..no, Megalodon certainly wasn't able to engage in a head butt contest with Livyatan, NO matter what Brett Kent says.

And since I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, I'll just rest my case until some new and definitive data is provided about both these creatures.

[Grey]

May 12, 2018 16:43:07 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

I'm not imagining an overgrown orca.
I'm logically assuming (like you also said) a more explosive and faster sperm whale.
And this actually seems to be the problem as the general perception of sperm whales is that of a sluggish and slow animal.
But the actual data tells a different story. Some sources claim a top speed of around 35km/h, that can be sustained for a impressive duration of time (about an hour).
Further, the Sperm whale IS far more maneuverable than a similarly sized shark would be, that's also a fact. It can stand in one place, it can turn in every angle while standing in place, it can swim upside down and twist around its axis. It can bend and dive straight down; it can twist upside down, bend from this position and charge straight up. A shark can't do ANY of this.

And like I described, this, combined with a powerful sonar that can track a target of megalodon's size from huge distance, definitely means that being able to use it to best advantage against the shark would take some brains..and whale definitely had that too.

Also, you again are losing perspective ..that a shark can ram, for example a GWS bumping into seal and knocking him out, doesn't turn a shark into a ramming machine.
And a sperm whale is a ramming machine.
There's a lengthy study about SW ramming potential I posted in this thread a long while ago, pretty sure you remember it.
Anyway, in short..no, Megalodon certainly wasn't able to engage in a head butt contest with Livyatan, NO matter what Brett Kent says.

And since I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, I'll just rest my case until some new and definitive data is provided about both these creatures.

Sperm whales are not exactly champions of maneuvrability because they are subject to massive physical constraints.
I frankly doubt you have any data regarding the speed to turn around at which a 40 tonnes bull would operate.

The fact the shark would be obligated to always move is no more relevant than the sperm would quickly need to breathe and expose itself at any given moment.

I should recall that Livyatan was certainly not as adapted to ramming as Physeter.
At the same time, it doesn't need to be designed as a battery ram to be able to ram effectively large targets. Baleen whales are not battering rams. Yet, whaling ships have been sunk by mysticetes as well.
A recent study suggests megalodon to have had a similar cruising speed than a fin whale, not exactly the less athletic cetacean, so I certainly wouldn't put the speed advantage on the cetacean side.
A simple scaling would suggest megalodon max speed would greatly exceed the maximum speed recorded in great whites.

As for the head butt contest, at first it would never happen at all. Second, are you sure of that ? As I recalled, the melon in Livyatan is certainly not as massive as in Physeter. On the other hand, it is usually expected for megalodon to have developped a significantly more robust and stouter chondocranium than in the GWS. When I compare the meg chondicranium from Gottfried 1996 scaled at 17 m with the Livyatan skull from Lambert 2010, I certainly don't see any discrepancy in head volume in favor to the cetacean. They appear roughly even.

img11.hostingpics.net/pics/471506liv17.png


You overestimate the importance of those specificities, which actually are not specific to the whale in that case.
50 tonnes plus (Gottfried 1996) of superpredatory shark ramming at 37 kph (Ferrón 2017) would be just as devastating as any ramming the Livyatan could perform.

Plus, a large part of your analysis is based on sheer assumptions and speculations. I prefer to focus on the physical material we have so far.
The apparently larger, more voluminous killing apparatus of megalodon is more impressive to me than even the one in Livyatan, even if it is only reconstructed at this stage.
This is exactly the reason why Lambert 2010 limited the hyperbole statements regarding Livyatan bite to the tetrapods, because of the probably even larger killing arsenal of the otodontid.

As I stated in my previous post, even though there is much more to find out regarding the physeteroid and that any discovery could change everything, the fact is there is much more material suggesting the shark to have grown significantly larger (Gottfried 1996; Pimiento 2015 revised; Perez et al. in preparation; private material) and thus having a significant size advantage. All the hints I have investigated that could lead to get larger size estimates for Livyatan (isolated teeth from Peru, Chile, Spain and Australia, tooth/body ratio...) have been deceptive so far.

The Bristol scientific journal discusses this by the way :

issuu.com/synapsebristol/docs/synapse_issue_9_nobleed_2

[elosha11]

Hey Creature386, just wanted to let you know Grey wrote the above post ^ in response to Sam1's May 2 post on carnivora in Meg v. Livytan. Also, I'm going to post below here in response to Sam1's statement that he would back any comparably-sized pseudo orca/FKW against a great white. He uses that as some type of support for a proxy between Meg and Livyatan. Please feel free to post that my response on carnivora as well. Just make sure to identify me, so he knows that response is from me and not Grey. Thanks!

I have not forgotten about the GWS v. SW croc responses on carnivora. As soon as I get a little more time I'll put together some detailed responses on that thread



Here's my response to Sam1 on the false killer whale assertion. Please post on carnivora.

Hello Sam1. This is Elosha11. It's been a long time since we've discussed this stuff. Always enjoyed your insights, knowledge of cetaceans and observations. I wanted to address your assertion in post 1833 as to why you would support both orcas and pseudorcas/false killer whales in a fight with a comparable sized GWS. The point you were trying to make is that this should be a reasonable proxy contest as to how Meg would interact with Livyatan. In summary you alleged that Livyatan, orcas, pseudorcas all share superior maneuverability, ramming ability and intelligence over their shark counterparts. Because of these presumed advantages you stated.

Now these are all the reasons why I would also favor any similarly sized orca or pseudorca against a gws in a head on fight..and in case of Livyatan they are only even more pronounced as it is even more suited for both ramming and gripping onto large opponents.

That pseudorca and pilot whales are avoiding the gws is just a normal and expected behaviour, all things considered.
It has little to do with their chances in the hypothetical equal term fight.
They aren't out there recklessly and mindlessly looking for tough and dangerous fights with great whites.

I will say that since orcas are so much larger than great whites, using those interactions is of little value to Meg v. Liyatan debate. I always thought the value we could gain in what is known between large sharks and pseudorcas would be somewhat useful as an analogy for Meg v Livy. For instance GWS and FKW are both formidable and comparable in size, unlike sharks v. orcas. They are much closer in size when comparing them directly to Meg and Livyatan.

Here's practically everything I can find about false killer whales v. sharks. I think the evidence suggests the animals interact infrequently and also suggests (note I did NOT say prove) that large sharks can be the aggressors in these interactions and have engaged in predatory attempts on adult false killer whales. They appear to bite the false killer whales around their dorsal fins, a common prey tactic for sharks preying on dolphins. Here's the evidence.

First, there is a recent video of a pod of false killer whales chasing down a small (probably 3-4 foot) reef shark and the lead fkw capturing and killing the shark. However, that shark was likely a juvenile reef shark and nothing like a GWS or other large shark (tiger, bull, mako). Here's the image and link. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only known aggressive/predatory behavior that false killer whales have exhibit toward sharks of any kind.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3582653/Pod-dolphins-hunt-juvenile-shark-Cronulla-pulling-deep.html (with video)




Now here's the evidence of large sharks' probable predation attempts on adult false killer whales.

Note that these bites could have been from other shark species, but given the size and formidable weaponry of false killer whales, great whites should be a prime suspect, along with tiger sharks.

Jul 27, 2014 9:51:13 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

Healed shark bite wounds on a false killer whale in Hawaii. From the website www.cascadiaresearch.org/hawaii/july2010.htm



The researcher states with reference to this picture: "False killer whale with recent shark bite wound and a long-term injury to the dorsal fin, August 5, 2010. Photo by Dan McSweeney. This individual is HIPc127 in our catalog, first documented off Maui in March 2000 (with the bent dorsal fin), and seen several times since both off Maui and the island of Hawai‘i. The shark bite wound behind the dorsal fin is the first time we've documented evidence of an attack by a large shark on a false killer whale in Hawai‘i. "

An interesting follow up to the above account re a shark bite on the dorsal side of a false killer whale in Hawaii. This below cited research article documents possible evidence of sharks biting false killer whales in the Caribbean.

"

Among the 71 false killer whales, 18 individuals (25.4%) showed a total of 20 injuries (66.7% dorsal fin, 27.8% body, 5.6% both dorsal fin and body) . .
. . Six individuals (22.2%) had an unidentified injury of which the cause is unknown. These include three individuals that appeared to have crescent-shaped scars on their body which were possibly inflicted by sharks. However, the photographs were of insufficient quality to confirm this. . . . Three false killer whales had injuries that may have been caused by sharks but other causes could not be ruled out. All wounds were located on the dorsal part of the dolphin, which is consistent with other studies [24], [25]. It has been suggested that odontocetes turn their back to the shark when they are attacked or that odontocetes with attacks on their dorsal side are more likely to survive the attack [25]. There are at least ten shark species which are known to predate on cetaceans [25] and six of these occur in the Caribbean, including tiger shark (Galeocerdo cuvier), bull shark (Carcharhinus leucas), sixgill shark (Hexanchus griseus), dusky shark (Carcharhinus obscurus), oceanic white-tipped shark (Carcharhinus longimanus) and mako shark (Isurus oxyrinchus) [63], [64]. It is not known which of these species occur in Aruban waters. In any case, these records indicate that local dolphins may be subject to shark predation.

Research article found at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3929637/

Finally, from www.fearbeneath.com/2009/12/shark-snacks-on-false-killer-whale/, shark attack in Austrialia.

A false killer whale that beached on the Sunshine Coast yesterday bore wounds thought to be from a shark attack, experts have said. The injured whale had a damaged dorsal fin and evidence of “superficial” shark bites.

The whale died after desperate efforts by up to 50 people who rushed to Twin Waters on a rescue mission. The 3.8 metre female was first spotted at 6:30AM south of Mudjimba Island.

Originally thought to be a pilot whale, it was later identified by an attending Australia Zoo rescue team as a “pseudorca crassidens” – a false killer whale.

[elosha11]

^Creature386 - thanks for posting all of this on carnivora so quickly!

[creature386]

You're welcome. I had to do this to compensate for the fact that I didn't post Grey's comment for reasons I'd rather not talk about.

[Infinity Blade]

"Simple scaling" does not work when it comes to top speed. Do I need to list examples? Come on guys, you know better.
About the turning speed..have I ever said the whale turns better than the shark? I actually stated the turning ratio as the only maneuverability advantage of the shark.
Livyatan had smaller spermaceti organ, but the skull was proportionally obviously much more robust.
Further, its hunting patterns were almost certainly more ramming-oriented than that of the P.Macrocephalus.
With that said, here..hopefully this puts the ramming part to rest.

www.sciencenews.org/blog/wild-things/sperm-whale%E2%80%99s-head-built-ramming

peerj.com/articles/1895/

Please read the material carefully.

I also stated that gills are meg's greatest advantage BECAUSE the whale needs to go for air. But some context ..a whale can hunt at great depths for more than an hour without needing to breathe..in a scenario where it needs to stay relatively close to surface and keep the shark in check, it would only require brief resurfacing.

@elosha, hi, good to hear from you! And for your appreciation..makes all of this worth it. I appreciated your posts too, you are a shark advocate interested in constructive argument instead of "winning" a debate.
Of course I know about GWS predation attempts on FKW and Pilot whales.
I also know about one such account on adult Orca, that you didn't mention.
And frankly I don't see the issue. It's to be expected.
In fact I fully expect that meg sometimes preyed on Livyatan too, given the chance.

---

p.s.
The observation of two sperm whales diving down before colliding is exactly what I hypothesized here long ago..that the ramming battles occur bellow surface and hence are hard to observe.

"..Just before impact, the whales dove just below the surface of the water. That may explain why no one else has reported such sperm whale contests: If they’re occurring below the water’s surface, a person would have to be directly above the event, or in the water with the whales."

Where is he getting the idea that Livyatan's hunting method was "almost certainly more ramming-oriented that that of the P. macrocephalus"...?

[creature386]

The fun is over, guys. Sam1 just messaged me this:

Hi man.
Just letting you know..after I hummiliated taipan in one other topic, he is not allowing me to post on Carnivora anymore..my posts are simply getting blocked("moderation approval")
So yeah, what to say.. inform Elosha and Ted. And much thanks for what you did here. Cheers.

[elosha11]

He should join up over here, please invite him to join WoA. Then we could just continue the conversation. But it's too bad b/c Carnivora is such a rich repository for this kind of stuff, with so many members who can contribute.

[creature386]

Told him about the forum (but with no link, just the name, as I was a bit afraid of posting it).

[elosha11]

I see the disputed thread on carnivora is Savuti pride v. white rhino. Seems a bit far from Sam1's wheelhouse, but I guess he posts a lot more than just aquatic animal interactions.

[Infinity Blade]

There was also a dispute on 2 Smilodon vs. white rhino.

[Life]

May 21, 2018 5:54:33 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

He should join up over here, please invite him to join WoA. Then we could just continue the conversation.

I concur with this! He can openly express his views here.