Weasel
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Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 13:19:23 GMT 5
Weasel Since that proof has already been posted several times, I highly doubt you’ll do anything except ignore it again if I or anyone else reposts it. You have not given a single reason for your assertion of cats being better fighters. You haven’t even managed to tell me how exactly a wild cat will win against an eagle while a house cat won’t. The video that was posted clearly showed an eagle that was chasing a large wild cat, possibly even killing it. The account with the scottish wild cat that was "mangled" was explicitely described to be face to face, and it is very unlikely the cat was smaller than the eagle. The point is still standing; if cats were better fighters, eagles would not dare to prey on them. But they do prey on them, there are many accounts of that. And it doesn’t really matter whether its about wild cats, feral cats or servals. This is pretty much the same thing you said in your other comments I already replied to. I see the cat winning by avoiding the talons and grabbing the eagle, I posted this a long time ago. I don't think that the cat died the eagle was attacking the rear. You saying "it is unlikely that the cat was smaller" does not entirely convince me.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 13:30:57 GMT 5
btw your "proof" only tells me if its either face to face or at parity not both.
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Post by theropod on May 24, 2014 13:47:17 GMT 5
And is there any evidence that it could do so? An eagle striking its prey is a very quick and very precise action, its not as easy to just avoid the talons as you seem to believe. Why do you think the cat would be more capable of dodging the eagle than the eagle would be of catching it?
The facts are, eagles are fully capable of catching cats, and nothing so far made me believe a cat could successfully dodge an eagle in the majority of cases (let alone do so and "grab it" afterwards without getting killed). These birds are preying on very fast, agile animals all the time, accordingly, their attacks are very effective against these animals.
Would you mind reading what I wrote on that matter in the post you already replied to?
Well, what is it that makes you so entirely convinced of the opposite if even this evidence isn’t good enough? Scottish wild cats are heavier than golden eagles, and the account makes no mention of the cat not being an adult or the like–in fact it makes it sound like it was a fairly big cat. Period.
How is that?
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 14:00:54 GMT 5
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 14:01:11 GMT 5
If the cat faces the eagle it can simply turn so it won't be vulnerable, and if the eagle tries to swoop down the cat can jump at it from another direction, assuming its flying at low altitudes.
You said "The video that was posted clearly showed an eagle that was chasing a large wild cat, possibly even killing it" I replied "I don't think that the cat died the eagle was attacking the rear"
I never claimed it was smaller but we shouldn't assume it was smaller or bigger and just try to find an account that is confirmed to be at parity.
All of the accounts you have posted so far have been housecats, they don't confirm the weights, they don't state the circumstances.
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 24, 2014 15:18:32 GMT 5
The fact that they kill wild, feral, and domestic cats a good amount of the time proves the harpy eagle is very capable of winning to the bobcat. Is it really that hard to understand? There were other arguments not in the form of accounts as well, which, as theropod said, you ignored. Eagles killing don't kill wild cats at parity show me one account on here that was FOR SURE face to face and at parity. The only argument I ignored was eagles look bigger at parity in which I actually agree so I don't think replying would do anything. Remember what Fragillimus said about the scientific study posted earlier? As previously said, we can't know the details of those two encounters because they were sampling a shit ton of incidents of predation by eagles on other animals, thus they couldn't care less on the details. We can't really just make an assumption that they were juveniles, or whatever. But let's ignore accounts for a second. What about the eagle's much bigger talons? The eagle's talons are a helluva lot bigger than the bobcat's claws. The best weapon the bobcat has here are its jaws, and that head is pretty small. I'm sure Runic posted this argument earlier as well. What of these?
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Post by theropod on May 24, 2014 15:59:08 GMT 5
But if that was the case I would expect to see cases were that actually worked–all we are seeing are cases were it did not keep the eagle from attacking and securing a hold on the cat. So you think the cat could just avoid the eagle’s talons, but the eagle in turn could not avoid a cat jumping at it even while it is flying? We’ve already seen a video where an eagle escapes a bobcat leaping at it while it was on the ground! So…? I wrote "possibly even killing it", in reference to my previous post, namely this: One of the videos→ coherentsheaf has posted shows an eagle chasing, attacking and yanking up a wild cat that looked a good deal bigger than itself, all that while the cat was aware of it, i.e. without an ambush attack that would have given it the oppurtunity to kill it instantly. Any thoughts on what exactly was going on around 2:09? It was difficult to see because it happened quickly, but from frame-by-frame analysis it seems like in the end it comes to a halt behind that branch and the eagle swoops down on or at least extremely close to it, which doesn’t make sense if the cat got away. Some of the action resembles the incident with the coyote, but it seems rather unlikely the eagle could have fatally injured the feline in that short encounter, as it only made contact with its rear end (while it punctured the pectoral area in the coyote). But then, why doesn’t the cat flee when the eagle swoops down? A combination of exhaustion and injury perhaps? Important points from that video were as follows: • The cat was fleeing from an eagle that appeared smaller than itself (even visually) • The cat was aware of the eagle, but did not turn, face and kill it • The eagle had the strenght to yank up the cat • In the end it seems to swoop down on it. It is not clearly visible, but this would be consistent with the eagle killing the cat. So there really is no need to remind me of what I acknowledged myself, it would be better to read some thoughtful comment on the video. For example, an alternate explanation for the eagle swooping down in the end. and yes, that is relevant, because the size ratio would be comparable to that of a bobcat and a harpy eagle. Then find one instead of just talking about it. The eagle will likely come out on top, based on the accounts that we have, because those suggest eagles dominate cats of comparable or slightly bigger weight. If you have accounts or functional evidence of the contrary, I’d be very thrilled to read it. And you haven’t posted any accounts at all to back up your statements. You have been making hypotheses lacking evidence alltogether. So if what I brought forth is not satisfactory for you, I suggest you to search for better stuff. Until you do, we have to go with what we have.
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Post by Runic on May 24, 2014 18:10:08 GMT 5
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 23:19:48 GMT 5
Eagles killing don't kill wild cats at parity show me one account on here that was FOR SURE face to face and at parity. The only argument I ignored was eagles look bigger at parity in which I actually agree so I don't think replying would do anything. Remember what Fragillimus said about the scientific study posted earlier? As previously said, we can't know the details of those two encounters because they were sampling a shit ton of incidents of predation by eagles on other animals, thus they couldn't care less on the details. We can't really just make an assumption that they were juveniles, or whatever. But let's ignore accounts for a second. What about the eagle's much bigger talons? The eagle's talons are a helluva lot bigger than the bobcat's claws. The best weapon the bobcat has here are its jaws, and that head is pretty small. I'm sure Runic posted this argument earlier as well. What of these? Not only do we not know anything about either animal we don't know if it was by ambush or face to face I.M.O In face to face fights claws and jaws along with the ability the use forelimbs to grapple are better tools for killing than talons
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Post by theropod on May 24, 2014 23:26:55 GMT 5
As I wrote previously, nothing the bobcat has has the penetrating ability of a harpy eagle’s talons.
Those of golden eagles have been known to penetrate the braincases and spines of calves (and probably also sheep and reindeer). And again, its not as if the eagle’s beak was useless. It can quite literally be used to eat an opponent alive, its no less of a weapon than the cat’s claws. It just isn’t its killing tool. It is claws & canines vs beak & talons.
In a face to face fight, the eagle needs to make one sucessful grip to kill or cause almost immediately fatal injuries. The cat on the other hand has to wrestle the eagle to the ground to then place its bite. I don”t see how the latter is superior.
But actually, it all breaks down to the eagle having an easier time getting a hold on the cat than vice versa (due to its flying ability and foot morphology), and it having an easier time killing the cat once it has got a hold on it (sheer lenght and penetrating ability of its claws).
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Weasel
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Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 24, 2014 23:31:26 GMT 5
But if that was the case I would expect to see cases were that actually worked–all we are seeing are cases were it did not keep the eagle from attacking and securing a hold on the cat. So you think the cat could just avoid the eagle’s talons, but the eagle in turn could not avoid a cat jumping at it even while it is flying? We’ve already seen a video where an eagle escapes a bobcat leaping at it while it was on the ground! So…? I wrote "possibly even killing it", in reference to my previous post, namely this: One of the videos→ coherentsheaf has posted shows an eagle chasing, attacking and yanking up a wild cat that looked a good deal bigger than itself, all that while the cat was aware of it, i.e. without an ambush attack that would have given it the oppurtunity to kill it instantly. Any thoughts on what exactly was going on around 2:09? It was difficult to see because it happened quickly, but from frame-by-frame analysis it seems like in the end it comes to a halt behind that branch and the eagle swoops down on or at least extremely close to it, which doesn’t make sense if the cat got away. Some of the action resembles the incident with the coyote, but it seems rather unlikely the eagle could have fatally injured the feline in that short encounter, as it only made contact with its rear end (while it punctured the pectoral area in the coyote). But then, why doesn’t the cat flee when the eagle swoops down? A combination of exhaustion and injury perhaps? Important points from that video were as follows: • The cat was fleeing from an eagle that appeared smaller than itself (even visually) • The cat was aware of the eagle, but did not turn, face and kill it • The eagle had the strenght to yank up the cat • In the end it seems to swoop down on it. It is not clearly visible, but this would be consistent with the eagle killing the cat. So there really is no need to remind me of what I acknowledged myself, it would be better to read some thoughtful comment on the video. For example, an alternate explanation for the eagle swooping down in the end. and yes, that is relevant, because the size ratio would be comparable to that of a bobcat and a harpy eagle. Then find one instead of just talking about it. The eagle will likely come out on top, based on the accounts that we have, because those suggest eagles dominate cats of comparable or slightly bigger weight. If you have accounts or functional evidence of the contrary, I’d be very thrilled to read it. And you haven’t posted any accounts at all to back up your statements. You have been making hypotheses lacking evidence alltogether. So if what I brought forth is not satisfactory for you, I suggest you to search for better stuff. Until you do, we have to go with what we have. All the cases where eagle's kill cats lack detail, either if it was at parity or if it was face to face im tired of repeating myself so until there is a case where it is confirmed to be at parity AND face to face lets not use accounts that much If it's "swooping down" I doubt it will be able to avoid the cat. We don't know the outcome so I wouldn't try and guess it. The cat was running with a pigeon in its mouth and couldn't turn around to kill the eagle its like with trained eagles killing wolves Im trying to avoid relying on accounts for it to be a useful account the circumstances will have to be stated and it will have to be confirmed to be at parity
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Post by theropod on May 24, 2014 23:42:06 GMT 5
And all the cases of cats killing eagles have even less detail. That doesn’t change the fact that these accounts are clearly in favour of the eagles.
You have seen the filmed encounter between an eagle and a larger wild cat. Did that make you think the wild cat was the superior fighter?
Still way better than the cat while leaping at the eagle…
Then I think you should stop posting here. There are enough other people who agree with me that there is more than enough evidence for feline and accipitrid behaviour and predatory capabilities as well as accounts to predict this though, and you have to respect that.
Ah! I thought it would be so easy to turn and face an eagle attacking it? And yet cats seemingly fail to do so, as do other carnivorans. Honestly, if I had to chose between my meal and my life, I’d rather drop my meal if that had given me a good oppurtunity to fight back.
There were no human hunters involved which may have had an impact on the carnivoran’s behaviour. And that’s the only relevant difference between those trained eagles and the wild counterpart. The eagles didn’t use different techniques than they would have done in the wild. Eagles aren’t martial artists, that supposed "training" doesn’t affect their killing abilities. They know how to hunt either way, and there is plenty of evidence taken from the wild for that.
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Post by Infinity Blade on May 25, 2014 1:24:37 GMT 5
As I wrote previously, nothing the bobcat has has the penetrating ability of a harpy eagle’s talons. Those of golden eagles have been known to penetrate the braincases and spines of calves (and probably also sheep and reindeer). And again, its not as if the eagle’s beak was useless. It can quite literally be used to eat an opponent alive, its no less of a weapon than the cat’s claws. It just isn’t its killing tool. It is claws & canines vs beak & talons. In a face to face fight, the eagle needs to make one sucessful grip to kill or cause almost immediately fatal injuries. The cat on the other hand has to wrestle the eagle to the ground to then place its bite. I don”t see how the latter is superior. But actually, it all breaks down to the eagle having an easier time getting a hold on the cat than vice versa (due to its flying ability and foot morphology), and it having an easier time killing the cat once it has got a hold on it (sheer lenght and penetrating ability of its claws). Thanks for summing it up on weaponry.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 25, 2014 10:04:24 GMT 5
So why do you keep using accounts? if you know none of them are confirmed to be face to face and at parity why use them?
It wouldn't be hard for the cat to just jump at the eagle when it swoops down at low altitudes, the eagle might be able to cancel the attempt and fly up at higher altitude assuming the cat doesn't catch it by then.
Read my other replies, the ones I have repeated from the very beginning of this whole account argument.
Most cats aren't afraid of eagles, not even housecats.
I doubt any wild eagle will be able to kill wolves like a trained one, im sure training eagles does matter, otherwise it would be a waste of time.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 25, 2014 10:08:25 GMT 5
Im sure the eagles beak will only do alot of damage if the bobcat is smaller than the eagle, I don't think one grip would kill the bobcat maybe injure but not one shot it.
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