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Post by creature386 on Apr 2, 2019 15:39:01 GMT 5
On the old Carnivora, there was a thread about how well Gorgosaurus would survive in modern day North America with no humans and the Pleistocene fauna still intact. Ursus arctos argued that brain size is extremely important for invasive species to succeed. This makes for an interesting conflict: The Mapusaurus is much bigger and stronger, yet the saber-toothed cats can think circles around it. Who could win in this battle of brain vs brawn? Ursus also argued that the invasive apex predator must kill the intermediate predator to succeed. His post can be found here (this is more for me than for you so that I remember the post when I need it in the future): www.tapatalk.com/groups/carnivora/could-gorgosaurus-survive-in-north-america-today-t14318-s10.html |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 2, 2019 15:45:27 GMT 5
I remember on the old Carnivora, we also had Mapusaurus vs American mastodon. I'll get a few excerpts from all those respective threads as soon as somebody gives me a spare archive account.
Yeah, that could be interesting. I think Mapusaurus could win hands-down in a death match, but in simply a natural interaction, any factor from disinterest to intimidation to not being hungry enough to challenge the other party directly could make it go all sorts of different ways.
For example, if the Mapusaurus was able to bring down a large mastodon while the Populators were not able to get anything, they could challenge the carnosaur out of sheer desperation and it would likely leave on the principle of being mostly full and with not enough incentive to take on and drive away all 8-12 sabertooths.
Oh, and in case I haven't told you, my archive account was banned. I'll have to wait until someone else gives me a password for another one.
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Post by creature386 on Apr 2, 2019 15:51:51 GMT 5
As for interactions between Mapusaurus and the Mastodon, a big problem the dinosaur has to address is the stealth problem. As it is not a crouching feline, how does it avoid being seen from miles away?
From Ursus:
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 2, 2019 16:00:45 GMT 5
I think that one would likely work itself out after their first few interactions. Neither one would really know what the other was nor if it was dangerous, but I think I'd be able to figure something out based on the following events and interactions.
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Post by creature386 on Apr 2, 2019 16:04:07 GMT 5
That's where the intelligence factor comes in (some people literally define it as the ability to adapt to change).
I think the Mapusaurus' best bets would be on becoming a kleptoparasite, though that would require some adaptation as well.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 2, 2019 16:08:10 GMT 5
^That might actually fit in well with the basis of the storyline. It was supposed to be set during the beginning of the Pleistocene extinctions, and being a kleptoparasite/scavenger could very well work in the Mapusaurus' favor there.
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Post by creature386 on Apr 2, 2019 16:16:06 GMT 5
For those who are still interested in the "scientists get transported into the past" type stories and know German or are willing to use google translator, here's the preview of a story I've read yesterday: www.wattpad.com/261717929-neue-alte-welt-die-weißen-steine-band-i-prologOK, it are not scientists, but 10th graders who are transported into the past by a miraculous incident, but the principle is similar. Should I ever return to my old story idea and acquire the full novel, I might use the latter as an inspiration for the former. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 2, 2019 23:25:29 GMT 5
On the old Carnivora, there was a thread about how well Gorgosaurus would survive in modern day North America with no humans and the Pleistocene fauna still intact. Ursus arctos argued that brain size is extremely important for invasive species to succeed. This makes for an interesting conflict: The Mapusaurus is much bigger and stronger, yet the saber-toothed cats can think circles around it. Who could win in this battle of brain vs brawn? Ursus also argued that the invasive apex predator must kill the intermediate predator to succeed. His post can be found here (this is more for me than for you so that I remember the post when I need it in the future): www.tapatalk.com/groups/carnivora/could-gorgosaurus-survive-in-north-america-today-t14318-s10.htmlHow do invasive non-avian reptiles succeed? I can't imagine that brain size is all that great in these animals, yet they clearly succeed. And why brain size as opposed to actual, raw cognitive capability? Just to contribute a bit of input from myself, it would basically be the same way they addressed it during the Mesozoic. sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.jtbi.2018.10.010 |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 3, 2019 0:21:37 GMT 5
On the old Carnivora, there was a thread about how well Gorgosaurus would survive in modern day North America with no humans and the Pleistocene fauna still intact. Ursus arctos argued that brain size is extremely important for invasive species to succeed. This makes for an interesting conflict: The Mapusaurus is much bigger and stronger, yet the saber-toothed cats can think circles around it. Who could win in this battle of brain vs brawn? Ursus also argued that the invasive apex predator must kill the intermediate predator to succeed. His post can be found here (this is more for me than for you so that I remember the post when I need it in the future): www.tapatalk.com/groups/carnivora/could-gorgosaurus-survive-in-north-america-today-t14318-s10.htmlHow do invasive non-avian reptiles succeed? I can't imagine that brain size is all that great in these animals, yet they clearly succeed. And why brain size as opposed to actual, raw cognitive capability? By filling the niches of other non-avian reptiles in the habitat. This is not an option for Mapusaurus. Raw cognitive abilities are difficult to define and quantify. Whatever they are, brain size is a good proxy for them. Very interesting. Though the paper did point out that part of the seismic wave camoflague happens by hiding behind a whole jungle of seismic signals more intense than anything today. After all, the prey somehow had to detect predators much smaller than Mapusaurus. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 3, 2019 1:08:54 GMT 5
Do you mean filling in a vacant niche or flat-out outcompeting them? For what it's worth, Burmese pythons, for example, compete with other animals. But it's not solely with other non-avian reptiles, it's also with mammals and birds ( link). If you mean this in the context of encephalization quotient, then I would probably agree (although admittedly, even it appears to only be meant as a rough measure of actual intelligence). The most recent estimate for T. rex's EQ I've seen is from Steve Brusatte (from his book The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs); for a reptile, it had an EQ of 2.0-2.4. This approximately overlaps with the 50% ratio estimates of non-avian reptile EQ for Tyrannosaurus in Hurlburt et al. (2013); those estimates were 1.66-2.47. I've contacted Brusatte by email, and he told me that such an EQ range (2.0-2.4) would suggest intelligence on par with say, cats and dogs (mammal EQ and reptile EQ are measured on different scales, so a reptile EQ of 2.0 =/= a mammal EQ of 2.0). Hurlburt et al.'s estimates for Carcharodontosaurus (the closest relative to Mapusaurus in that study) are more modest, so I wonder what it would be on par with...assuming the actual intelligence of these theropods didn't deviate from what we'd expect of an animal with their EQs. |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 3, 2019 2:05:52 GMT 5
This is one of the papers Ursus cited for those interested: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0018277They compared like with like, e.g. (relatively) larger brain mammals/birds with smaller brained mammals/birds and larger brained reptiles/amphibians with smaller brained reptiles/amphibians. Interestingly, a larger brain was unhelpful in Australia, as the metabolic costs cancel out all the benefits there due to general resource scarcity. Some very interesting data on theropod EQs by the way. I did not expect them to be that high. |
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Post by theropod on Apr 3, 2019 2:29:52 GMT 5
^That’s comparing "reptiles" to other "reptiles" etc., comparing relative brain size of a theropod to that of a mammal is probably rather irrelevant, especially considering the massive difference in size between them. In the past months we’ve repeatedly had neurobiologists and cognition researchers lecturing not to jump to any conclusions about animals’ intelligence from looking at their brains, it doesn’t seem like there is a very good link especially across taxa.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 3, 2019 4:34:31 GMT 5
theropod and creature386, has the consensus changed at all? Should I update my storyline going y the Mapusaur's intellegence? Infinity Blade, didn't you strongly back the Mapusaurus over the mastodon on the old Carnivora? Correct me if I misunderstood something, but it seems to me as if I may need to change the storyline going by the outcome of the fight between the 2.
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Post by theropod on Apr 4, 2019 0:15:45 GMT 5
^I didn’t mean a consensus, just what my lecturers say. Sorry, should have clarified that.
But I think it’s save to say that while yes, looking at a volumetric model of a nervous system does reveal many interesting and potentially significant anatomical details, laypeople are way too quick to jump to far-sweeping conclusions from observations such as "endocast volume A is bigger than endocast volume B". Those kinds of differences are primarily important when comparing closely related animals, and mostly tell you how much neurological complexity and control may have been required for the day to day lifestyle of an animal, not necessarily anything beyond this ("intelligence", "higher cognitive functions", "strategy and tactics" and such).
If you were to put a mesozoic dinosaur in a modern ecosystem, there are lots of reasons why it might not survive, but being too stupid to survive is one of the less likely ones.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 4, 2019 6:24:26 GMT 5
Edit: Never mind, I've made up my mind.
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