rock
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Post by rock on Apr 27, 2019 21:50:07 GMT 5
Firstly, if it's head to head, that would be more unfair to the Stegosaurus than it would be to the T rex if the Stegosaurus was facing away from it, and as such this needs to be tail-to-head in the direction of Stegosaurus. Second, I doubt T rex could use its tail as a weapon against a foe like Stegosaurus, and if it did it would be at serious risk of being hit by the thagomizer. Do you have any other arguments rock? No offense, but nothing you've said so far seems to rebut what I've said. t rex is larger and heavier , it has a stronger bite force , plus t rex would have more fighting experince fighting larger animals than a stegosarus like a triceratops. t rex would also be faster and would be able to avoid stegosarus tail if its smart enough . also allosarus which is much smaller than a t rex hunted stegosarus , so if allosarus take down stegosarus , i am pretty sure t rex could too . now yes the stegosarus can do very good damage with its tail , but i doubt it would be enough to kill a t rex . also t rex can likley crush the tail with its bite force or it can get to its neck before stegosarus can hit it with its tail . also if its a head to head fight , then no it should not be facing away from the t rex it should be facing twords the t rex . to me thats giving stegosarus a unfair advantage , since this is a head to head hypthetical caged fight |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 22:16:59 GMT 5
Firstly, if it's head to head, that would be more unfair to the Stegosaurus than it would be to the T rex if the Stegosaurus was facing away from it, and as such this needs to be tail-to-head in the direction of Stegosaurus. Second, I doubt T rex could use its tail as a weapon against a foe like Stegosaurus, and if it did it would be at serious risk of being hit by the thagomizer. Do you have any other arguments rock? No offense, but nothing you've said so far seems to rebut what I've said. 1: t rex is larger and heavier , 2: it has a stronger bite force , 3: plus t rex would have more fighting experince fighting larger animals than a stegosarus like a triceratops. t rex would also be faster and would be able to avoid stegosarus tail if its smart enough . 4: also allosarus which is much smaller than a t rex hunted stegosarus , so if allosarus take down stegosarus , i am pretty sure t rex could too . 5: now yes the stegosarus can do very good damage with its tail , but i doubt it would be enough to kill a t rex . 6: also t rex can likley crush the tail with its bite force or it can get to its neck before stegosarus can hit it with its tail . 7: also if its a head to head fight , then no it should not be facing away from the t rex it should be facing twords the t rex . to me thats giving stegosarus a unfair advantage , since this is a head to head hypthetical caged fight 1: T rex and Stegosaurus are so similar in size that a bit of size advantage to one or the other is rather irrelevant 2: That bite force is of no use if Rex can't get past that tail 3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. 4: Allosaurus fragilis has been known to hunt in packs, they likely hunted the smaller species of Stegosaurus instead of the 7-ton species being used here, and they most likely ambushed young, sick, or old Stegosaurus, just like modern predators do. Moreover, even if it hunted disadvantaged individuals in packs via ambush, it still had experience, which T rex would have lacked entirely. 5: A tail vertebra of an Allosaurus fragilis had been punctured by the thagomizer of a smaller Stegosaurus species. While the theropod did indeed survive the attack, there are some caveats with that: It's a smaller species of Stegosaurus not trying to kill its opponent, but simply deter it. That's WAY below a much bigger and stronger species of Stegosaurus actively trying to kill its opponent. Moreover, the hit was in a non-vital area, and while the Allosaurus fragilis may have survived the attack, I doubt it would have been much good at fighting immediately afterwards. That applies here as well. Immediately after T rex takes a hit, its fighting ability will vastly decrease, and Stegosaurus would keep on stabbing it until it perished. 6: Again, T rex's lack of experience is going to invalidate this. If it does go for the head, it's not going to know to watch out for the thagomizer, and it will be stabbed multiple times and sustain serious damage. Moreover, having your main weapon on your tail requires you to be a good turner, and Stegosaurus likely would've been able to keep T rex behind it. T rex also won't know to disable the tail, and even if it did, it would put itself in major trouble by coming so close to the thagomizer that it won't know to watch out for. 7: Stegosaurus may have been a good turner, but it wan't lightning fast, and if this was face to face then T rex would win practically every time. However, T rex would have a better chance at getting past the tail (it wasn't an insurmountable barrier) than Stegosaurus would of turning around in time, so yes, it really is fairer if this was face-to-tail in Stegosaurus' direction. |
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rock
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Post by rock on Apr 27, 2019 22:21:05 GMT 5
1: t rex is larger and heavier , 2: it has a stronger bite force , 3: plus t rex would have more fighting experince fighting larger animals than a stegosarus like a triceratops. t rex would also be faster and would be able to avoid stegosarus tail if its smart enough . 4: also allosarus which is much smaller than a t rex hunted stegosarus , so if allosarus take down stegosarus , i am pretty sure t rex could too . 5: now yes the stegosarus can do very good damage with its tail , but i doubt it would be enough to kill a t rex . 6: also t rex can likley crush the tail with its bite force or it can get to its neck before stegosarus can hit it with its tail . 7: also if its a head to head fight , then no it should not be facing away from the t rex it should be facing twords the t rex . to me thats giving stegosarus a unfair advantage , since this is a head to head hypthetical caged fight 1: T rex and Stegosaurus are so similar in size that a bit of size advantage to one or the other is rather irrelevant 2: That bite force is of no use if Rex can't get past that tail 3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. 4: Allosaurus fragilis has been known to hunt in packs, they likely hunted the smaller species of Stegosaurus instead of the 7-ton species being used here, and they most likely ambushed young, sick, or old Stegosaurus, just like modern predators do. Moreover, even if it hunted disadvantaged individuals in packs via ambush, it still had experience, which T rex would have lacked entirely. 5: A tail vertebra of an Allosaurus fragilis had been punctured by the thagomizer of a smaller Stegosaurus species. While the theropod did indeed survive the attack, there are some caveats with that: It's a smaller species of Stegosaurus not trying to kill its opponent, but simply deter it. That's WAY below a much bigger and stronger species of Stegosaurus actively trying to kill its opponent. Moreover, the hit was in a non-vital area, and while the Allosaurus fragilis may have survived the attack, I doubt it would have been much good at fighting immediately afterwards. That applies here as well. Immediately after T rex takes a hit, its fighting ability will vastly decrease, and Stegosaurus would keep on stabbing it until it perished. 6: Again, T rex's lack of experience is going to invalidate this. If it does go for the head, it's not going to know to watch out for the thagomizer, and it will be stabbed multiple times and sustain serious damage. Moreover, having your main weapon on your tail requires you to be a good turner, and Stegosaurus likely would've been able to keep T rex behind it. T rex also won't know to disable the tail, and even if it did, it would put itself in major trouble by coming so close to the thagomizer that it won't know to watch out for. 7: Stegosaurus may have been a good turner, but it wan't lightning fast, and if this was face to face then T rex would win practically every time. However, T rex would have a better chance at getting past the tail (it wasn't an insurmountable barrier) than Stegosaurus would of turning around in time, so yes, it really is fairer if this was face-to-tail in Stegosaurus' direction. ok , i am not saying it is impossible for stegosarus to win , i am just saying that in a head to head fight its more likley for t rex to win |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 0:05:32 GMT 5
I agree T rex would win face-to-face, but with all the above in mind, who'd you favor face to tail?
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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 0:09:13 GMT 5
^You guys realize that Stegosaurus was nowhere near 7t on average right? And Triceratops nowhere near 9?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 0:14:45 GMT 5
What? How?
I'm talking about Stegosaurus armatus, and how wasn't Triceratops 6-12 tons?
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rock
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 0:52:24 GMT 5
^You guys realize that Stegosaurus was nowhere near 7t on average right? And Triceratops nowhere near 9? im just cerious , but who do you think would win here? |
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rock
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 0:55:23 GMT 5
I agree T rex would win face-to-face, but with all the above in mind, who'd you favor face to tail? face to tail . in say 50/50 whoever gets the first good blow will prevail . in that case stegosarus would have a great chance to win , but so would t-rex. |
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rock
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 0:55:51 GMT 5
What? How? I'm talking about Stegosaurus armatus, and how wasn't Triceratops 6-12 tons? so since this is a face to face fight and not face to tail . have you changed your mind on who wins? |
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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 0:56:49 GMT 5
You are talking about Stegosaurus ungulatus, S. armatus is a nomen dubium. And most individuals were far smaller than that, 9m/7t is maximum size.
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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 0:57:10 GMT 5
^You guys realize that Stegosaurus was nowhere near 7t on average right? And Triceratops nowhere near 9? im just cerious , but who do you think would win here? Don’t care. |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 28, 2019 3:11:54 GMT 5
As for the question if this is face-to-face or face-to-tail, what would you guys consider a reasonable starting distance? The greater the starting distance, the less it matters, since Stegosaurus would have enough time to turn the tail.
Of course, we can simple imagine several scenarios with different starting distances and different starting positions and discuss which outcome is all-in-all the most likely.
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rock
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 4:59:26 GMT 5
As for the question if this is face-to-face or face-to-tail, what would you guys consider a reasonable starting distance? The greater the starting distance, the less it matters, since Stegosaurus would have enough time to turn the tail. Of course, we can simple imagine several scenarios with different starting distances and different starting positions and discuss which outcome is all-in-all the most likely. who do you favor here though? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 7:31:00 GMT 5
You are talking about Stegosaurus ungulatus, S. armatus is a nomen dubium. And most individuals were far smaller than that, 9m/7t is maximum size. Haven't there been fragmentary Stegosaurus bones that suggest individuals over 10 meters and possibly over 8 tons? Anyway, I did not know armatus was a nomen dubium. For the sake of fairness, we could perhaps assume parity. rock I do not consider face-to-face fair enough to debate, so we could perhaps try face to tail with moderate distance. That may be fairer. |
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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 13:42:08 GMT 5
You are talking about Stegosaurus ungulatus, S. armatus is a nomen dubium. And most individuals were far smaller than that, 9m/7t is maximum size. Haven't there been fragmentary Stegosaurus bones that suggest individuals over 10 meters and possibly over 8 tons? Anyway, I did not know armatus was a nomen dubium. For the sake of fairness, we could perhaps assume parity. rock I do not consider face-to-face fair enough to debate, so we could perhaps try face to tail with moderate distance. That may be fairer. I don't know exactly what size the largest individuals are. For what it's worth, no substantial skeleton I know is anywhere near that size. I did a quick 3d model of the ultiview pictures provided by Osborn's note on the old skeletal mount, which will probably not be very accurate but gave me around 2.5t at 6m axial length, so a hypothetical 9m one could very well exceed 8t. However if such individuals exist they are vastly above the normal size. EDIT: actually, screw that. I’d totally forgotten that there already is a much better volumetric estimate for the Sophie/Sarah specimen (Brassey et al. 2015*), which has a femur length of 87cm and total length of ~5.5-6 m (I’m getting 5.6 m from measuring the figure based on the femur length). The most realistic estimates appear to be the preferred 1560kg and the "max" 1894 kg. Based on that an 138.2cm femur might correspond to an 8.8-9.66m animal. However it seems that S. ungulatus has long but relatively slender femora, so it might not have been as heavy as this implies. *Brassey Charlotte A., Maidment Susannah C. R., and Barrett Paul M. 2015: Body mass estimates of an exceptionally complete Stegosaurus (Ornithischia: Thyreophora): comparing volumetric and linear bivariate mass estimation methods. Biology Letters 11:20140984. |
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