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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 8, 2019 21:27:53 GMT 5
leo
The bear probably has better weapons (why else would the bison need the size advantage?) but I agree with you on everything else; bison wins after a close match
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
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Post by rock on Aug 9, 2019 1:25:18 GMT 5
I’ll take the bison here , better defense, better weapons and it I should faster and heavier but this seams close i agree that the cow should win here but to say it has better weapons than a bear [who can fight with teeth and claws] seams like a drag |
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all
Junior Member
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Post by all on Sept 22, 2019 22:38:54 GMT 5
I will give Bison slight advantage but very slight. Infect there is a good chance that Bear wins this fight.
Weight 900 kg for the bison. Weight 900 kg for the bear. Infect there are estimates that put the bear weight over 1100 kg. And bison that is 900 kg is a large specimen as well. which puts the weight of large bear and larger bison at about 900 kg each. There are estimates that put weight of AS at only 500-600 kg but even if he was more slender then grizzly. largest grizzly bears can reach 680 kg at 9 feet So at 12 feet Short faced bear would be about 900 kg.
Weapons. Yes bison has huge powerful horns and if he charges the bear the impact would be devastating. Cave bear 8 inch claws that are more adapted for slashing then those of grizzly bear. Yes grizzly would not generally go after the American bison because if bear gets seriously injured he will not be able to hunt and will starve to death. However if wining the fight meant survival things might be different. American bison weighs up to 900 kg as well and record breakers were larger than that. Grizzly 680 there is larger size difference than between AS and wood bison. Grizzly has bite force of 1200 lbs per square inch max. Which brings me to bite force of AS. The estimates of his max bite force vary. With some estimating it to be 2000 lbs per square inch others 2200 lbs per square inch while other scientist say 2500 lbs per square inch. That is significantly larger than grizzly. AS has two weapons bison only one. One might be all he needs but still.
AS teeth were shorter than those of grizzly bear in comparison to the skull. However over all they were as long if not more. They were also much more massive.
Bison has tremendous strength no doubt about it. and the horns can do huge amount of damage. Bear has huge amount of power in its upper body. Both are massive powerful animals. But bear has to be really careful of those horns. That is why I'm giving wood bison slight advantage. But it could go ether way
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 22, 2019 23:20:01 GMT 5
allHere is something you may wish to consider, in regards to the bear's grappling: 
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all
Junior Member
Posts: 238
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Post by all on Sept 23, 2019 4:37:38 GMT 5
I will buy that AS has less developed pectoral muscles then Grizzly bear but not any modern cat and probably not any cat at all.
As far as wrestling ability AS makes up its loss of muscle power with its size. When you see the skull of AS you can see that his canines are about as long as grizzly bears in comparison to the skull. Of course heaving larger skull AS are probably longer. Plus AS canines are much more massive than those of Grizzly bear even if their skulls would be of same size. The bite force of AS is 2200 lbs per square inch. Some estimates say it is 2000 lbs but other put figure of 2500 lbs. If you look at the skull of AS in comparison to Grizzly bear. AS has significantly more pronounced sagittal crest. And width of the skull at zygomatic arch is much larger than that of grizzly bear. I don't know how dense the skull of AS is but I think is as dense as that of grizzly bear (it might be denser but I don't think that is likely)it however is definitely not less dense that grizzly bears'.
With the whole skull being larger as well. The zygomatic bone is also wider in case of AS. If grizzly bears bite force is 1200 lbs per square inch then AS is about 2200 lbs per square inch or the largest of three estimates I put forward is correct and it is infect 2500 lbs per square inch. If it is 2200 lbs per square inch then it is about 83% larger than that of grizzly bear if it is 2500 lbs than it is more than double. Over all I think the most accurate statement is that AS bite force is no more but no less than 2 times that of grizzly bear.
grizzly bears' claws are 5 even 6 inches long. But AS are 8 inches long and more adapted for killing prey than those of grizzly bear. in an encounter against wood bison no bear except the Arctotherium would have any hope to wrestle and dominate wood bison this way. wrestling would help and more of that ability the better for given bear. but the killing blow would have to come from bears ability to deliver powerful enough bite to the throat. hold on to throat very tightly in both of those things AS is significantly better than grizzly bear. before delivering bite to the throat claws that are larger and more adapted for killing would help more than ones that are smaller and less adapted for this purpose.
Only after strong enough grab by the throat and slowly working on suffocating the bison there is possibility of getting into the wrestling mach in my opinion. And only a secure grip could allow the bear to put his weight on the bison and make the bison carry his weight while bear is constantly holding bison by the throat and continues to use his long claws to do more damage at the same time there is even hope to wrestle the bison into the ground. as far as wrestling AS might not be as good of a wrestler than grizzly bear pound per pound. he is 1/3 bigger and in wrestling that extra weight makes significant difference.
Overall I think AS has significantly better chances to defeat the wood bison than grizzly has. Of course they both would have hard time doing that. Bison can make wolf practically fly with one good hit from his horns. That is why I said Arctodus simus has slightly less chances wining over wood bison than vice versa but the difference between the two are not as great as one might believe. it was pointed out to me that all neutral scenarios should be taken into consideration not what would normally happen if both of the animals had food not fight to the death in mind. in actual meeting between the two animals they would normally stay away from each other. bear would only attack if there was a calf was near by and try to kill and eat it. or attack sick and tired adult. Bear technically has the power to win the fight but it is unlikely it would even try because even if he wins which I think although he is little bit outmatched he could in my opinion. ( But you make a good point about the fact that pound per pound grizzly might be a better wrestler I didn't know that if I did I would change my statement a little) He would likely be injured in the process and starve to death. So why bother when there is other prey around and he can always steal from smilodons and dire wolves. And wood bison would not attack the bear under most conditions because as far as he is concerned the further the bear is the better. There might be show of force between large male bison and large male bear but it is not that likely that they would ever fight directly to the death. The price to pay would simply be to large.
However if there would be something that would force them to absolutely having to fight to the death. and each believed that he will have no problem getting food but if he does not fight to the death with the other he will
be killed or die for some other reason. Then bear has almost as good of a chance to kill the bison that bison has to kill him.
The important reason bison usually wins the argument is that he has to worry about his wounds he will not be able to eat only if he is damaged to the point he will not be able to eat grass or keep up with the herd. And I'm not sure but I think herd will be quite sympathetic to him. While bear has to worry about his wounds and what will he eat next day if his injures prevent him from catching prey ( which would be much harder than looking for grass)and defend himself both from other bears and other predators. while bison always has the herd on his side.
As far as Agritherium africanum I never said I would put him against wood bison. As far as the fight between AA and grizzly bear however yes I lean more towards AA. because even if grizzly bear is better wrestler. grizzly bear has average length is under 2 meters. It probably can grow to 2.4 meters on occasion maybe little bit more but those instances are rare. AA can be 2.7 meters that makes him a little longer. While grizzly has larger pectoral muscles which give him more power. AA has more narrow chest that means less power but more stamina and his total weight and power is probably equal to grizzly bear.
Now in a fight power usually trumps stamina. But not is the bear with good stamina has bite force quotient of 265. and although AA has slightly less developed upper body and that does matter a lot. Its total weight can be as much as 900 kg in comparison with 680 kg of very largest grizzly bear.
Grizzly bear bite force quotient is 207 which is actually impressive. But AA weighs more and has a larger bite force quotient. which makes his bite force significantly stronger. Furthermore being larger even if his upper body is less developed he is stronger overall and while more narrow chest means less power AA makes it up with more mass. and more narrow chest means more stamina. Which means it can go longer despite its larger mass.
Polar bear seems to have bite force quotient of 159 by some measurements. And 184 by others. Polar bear has about same bite force as a grizzly bear 1200 lbs per square inch. If AA was the weight of polar bear he would have 2000 lbs per square inch bite force. But he is not. Polar bear can weigh maximum of 700 kg. While AA can weigh up to 900 kg. So it is actually larger. Now it was pointed out to me that double the weight does not mean double the bite force. I concede that I should have know better. However if 8 times the weight means 4 times the bite force. Then bite force of AA is still 2286 lbs per square inch. that is over 90% more than that of grizzly bear.
With almost double the bite force, more massive canines, and larger size plus good stamina for his weight Agritherium africanum wins over Grizzly bear. Infect it might actually have some chance against wood bison as well.
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