Tyrannosaurus rex vs. Giganotosaurus carolinii

[dinosauria101]

Problem solved, then. I now know they have similar density

[Ceratodromeus]

But do you really? Or are you just trying to silence the fact that you're being called out?

[dinosauria101]

Yes, I do. How else would I have stated this?
The same or similar densities are to be used for both animals

[Ceratodromeus]

Yes, I do. How else would I have stated this?

Seeing other people say something and understanding it are two incredibly different things. 

Given the fact you used a 7 year old post because you believed it suited your argument best, i have little faith.

[dinosauria101]

I didn't know other context that had to do with the post. I'll say it one last time, if the density is the same then it depends on which specimens are matched with which. Some Tyrannosaurus would win to the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens, some would be around 50/50, and some would lose.

[elosha11]

We all must be mindful that the ultimate purpose here should be education. Whether or not you agree with dinosauria101's positions or style of argumentation, he did acknowledge that he was persuaded that the two animals densities are likely the same. A capacity to learn and adjust one's positions based on evidence should be encouraged. Truth - and the ability to acknowledge the probability of truth by way of a more persuasive argument - is the beginning of the reduction of one's biases.

[dinosauria101]

^Thank you for that, elosha

[Ceratodromeus]

Jan 29, 2020 0:48:42 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

We all must be mindful that the ultimate purpose here should be education. Whether or not you agree with dinosauria101 's positions or style of argumentation, he did acknowledge that he was persuaded that the two animals densities are likely the same. A capacity to learn and adjust one's positions based on evidence should be encouraged. Truth - and the ability to acknowledge the probability of truth by way of a more persuasive argument - is the beginning of the reduction of one's biases.

Education cannot be done with those who refuse to accept things. I don't think someone whos information he is using should have had to directly reply to his cherry picked use of information from the better part of a decade ago for him to be "persuaded". Similarly, with someone who consistently uses outdated or wrong information, this is a major hurdle in "educating". I have seen very minimum effort to understand anything outside of when he is confronted directly about it. 

[elosha11]

Just my two cents. Seeing that dinosauria101 now acknowledged similar density and stated that some T-rexes would likely be favored against the two Giganotosaurus holotypes and some would not, it seems as if education and changing of positions is possible. Constructive or even harsh criticism may be warranted at times, but so should an acknowledgement of one's ability to be persuaded, even if you don't like the process how he got there.

[creature386]

I was about to say something similar to Ceratodromeus. There is a difference between learning from critiques and simply avoiding conflict. I have noticed often that dinosauria follows people's critiques very literally to the point of exploiting loopholes (just one example of many: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/52551/thread) or thinks that just adding a disclaimer will solve all problems. It's like if he is seeking for ways to just avoid conflict with his critics rather than struggling to understand the spirit behind the critiques.

[dinosauria101]

This is not a loophole. I understand what happened, and fixed my error.

[Ceratodromeus]

that doesn't change the habits shown though.

[theropod]

Jan 29, 2020 3:09:46 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

Just my two cents. Seeing that dinosauria101 now acknowledged similar density and stated that some T-rexes would likely be favored against the two Giganotosaurus holotypes and some would not, it seems as if education and changing of positions is possible. Constructive or even harsh criticism may be warranted at times, but so should an acknowledgement of one's ability to be persuaded, even if you don't like the process how he got there.

Just as a side note, per definition there can only ever be 1 holotype, or none at all. If there is more than one name-bearing type, then those are syntypes. In Giganotosaurus, there is a holotype, and there is a referred specimen (no type of any type). Said referred specimen, MUCPv-95 was the one that was described as 8% larger than the holotype (in a 1998 paper, 3 years after Giganotosaurus was named based on the holotype MUCPv-Ch1).

If it is this much larger, then it is at least as large as the largest described T. rex specimen (by weight, though probably a metre or so longer and somewhat taller). Then of course, it may well not have been that large. As I said before, Coria himself does not remember what exact measurements they went by (which doesn’t bode well for any of our hopes to ever see a more detailed description of G. carolinii), and there have been conflicting figures championed by different people on the internet. On the other hand, there was an entire peer-reviewed paper centered around this idea, and that’s not just going away. So if we dismiss this, then of course it we’d have to be prepared to argue any paper claiming a measurement for a specimen (there have been earlier papers claiming measurements for Scotty markedly different from what Persons & Currie state in their description of the specimen…) may not be reliable.

[dinosauria101]

For elosha, regarding MUCPv-95, it's just a jaw bone. It could belong to just another 12.4 meter and 7.1 tonne Giganotosaurus with just a big jaw, to a Giganotosaurus that is MORE than 8% larger than MUCPv-Ch1 with a proportionately smaller head and jaw. Hartman's best fit can help us get an idea.

[denis]

Jan 29, 2020 22:49:36 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

For elosha, regarding MUCPv-95, it's just a jaw bone. It could belong to just another 12.4 meter and 7.1 tonne Giganotosaurus with just a big jaw, to a Giganotosaurus that is MORE than 8% larger than MUCPv-Ch1 with a proportionately smaller head and jaw. Hartman's best fit can help us get an idea.

Eh, don’t think so.

Theropod size chart made by Franoys. May help you even more.