Create the ultimate predators

[Supercommunist]

Let's flex our creative muscles. Make up a predatory creature that you think would dominate if it were placed into earth's ecosystem, an intelligently designed creature if you will.

But a few rules and stipulations:

1: No human-like creature: It fairly obvious humans are the most successful species of animal on earth despite our rather lack luster anatomy. Hyper intelligence is OP so no sapient carnivores, creatures with elephant/corvid/ape intelligence is ok but try to stick away from an animal designs that would synergize well with advanced tool building.

2. Design must be grounded. No fantasy adaptions like fire-breathing animals. Also, like with evolution traits have trade offs. You can't have an animal that is both giant, yet is as fast as a cheetah for instance.


3. Three, in a similar vein to rule two try to stick away from gimmicky traits like the ability to generate electricity or punch-like a mantis shrimp. I'd be more willing to let it slide if the poster is really knowledgeable on the topic and is also able to discuss the draw backs of these incredible adaptations.

4. Since their is no such thing as a perfectly designed organism, feel free to create several different predators of different weight classes, niches, and enviroments.

Here are some of my ideas:

Neo Panzer crocs- Although few people know of them, fast terrestrial crocodylomorphs seem to be one of the more successful animal designs out there. It has reappeared throughout several iterations, and only recently have they unfortunately disappeared from the world. You could also argue that the cuban crocodile somewhat fulfills that role. Still, cool as these animals were, they could be improved.

Things that I would keep: no need to change the head or teeth design, crocodylomorphs have some of the most effective bites of any animal, and from what I understand, most of these animals had serrated teeth which are also some of the deadliest weaponry animals have ever developed. Their respiratory system also stays, since IIRC it was similar to that of avians which is superior to that of mammals. Judging by their four-chambered hearts rauisuchidae, sebecids, and other running crocs seem to been "warm blooded" but it seems we're still are not entirely sure if they were true endotherms like mammals or were mesotherms like great white sharks. In my opinion, I think with the exception of really cold climate, mesothermy seems like the better deal as it combines the best of both worlds endothermy and ectothermy.


Changes I would make: crocodilians are smarter than most people think and they're are a few studies suggesting they are capable of cooperative hunting but still I think they could benefit from greater intelligence. I would give them an african wild dog like pack system and intelligence. As most of us know, awds are some of the most successful hunters out there, often having a 60 percent high hunting success. To make the neo panzer crocs more effective hunters, I'd also give them more cursorial adaptations like making them digitigrades instead of plantigrade and giving them longer legs to increase their stride length. I'd also make them about grey wolf-sized so that they are big enough to kill moose-sized prey but not too big that they are dependent on huge megafauna for food.

Things I am not sure of: No idea if it would be better for them to be egg layers or live birthers. Both have their merits and I honestly have no idea which one wins out overall. Also not sure if they should keep their trade mark scutes or develop some fur-like feathers for better insulation. The scutes would be useful in intraspecfic conflict and when dealing with large prey but insulating feathers would help the animal live in colder climates. Feathers are probably more useful though and I am just being difficult cause I think scutes and scales look cooler.

Although I am obviously biased being the creator and all, but I would imagine my creation would be very effective. Lone canines and hyenas are known to occasionally bring down herbivores much larger than themselves and they lack the really devastating serrated dentition that theropods, sharks, and many archosaurs had. Lone komodos, are known to cripple much larger herbivores with a single bite so you could imagine what a whole pack of fast, agile, reptiles could do. Their willingness to work in packs would allow them to bring down huge dangerous animals they could't overwhelm on their own, and in the event one is injured, they'd have a better chance of recovery since their pack members could take care of them. However, in the event their in some mass die of animals, the neo panzer crocs moderate size would help it survive.

What do you guys think? I have more ideas but I am going to wait and see if there is any interest before investing any more time in this. Also please, excuse any spelling or grammar errors I made. I am too lazy to edit.

[Infinity Blade]

Welp, guess it's time to bring my inner fanboy out...at least a bit.

Marine spinosaur descendants:

With recent discoveries on Spinosaurus, I now really like to think that spinosaurids were on their way transitioning from a life on land to a fully aquatic lifestyle, kind of like how whales did. Unfortunately, we have no evidence that spinosaurids ever produced such descendants, and they seem to have gone extinct before anything like that could ever happen. So here’s me taking that idea and making it into a totally amazing awesome superpredator.

Things I would keep: I would keep the big sharp claws and powerful forelimbs. This might seem like an odd or unrealistic choice, but I do have a real life precedent for this. Phocines (northern seals) have forepaws that, while webbed between the digits, still retain flexible joints and sharp, strong claws, which they retained from their terrestrial ancestors. When a phocine first grabs its prey with its jaws, it swims up to the surface (or at least just orients itself vertically), grabs the prey item with its forelimbs, and tears it apart between its teeth and claws. So their retention of clawed paws are an adaptation to help them dismember food and prey items, as well as to help them hunt and secure large prey like porpoises (Hocking et al., 2018). Spinosaurids retained their extremely powerful forelimbs and sharp, powerful claws from their terrestrial ancestors, and, at least up to that point, showed no signs in reducing them into mere flippers. I could feasibly see a spinosaurid descendant retaining claws to help secure large prey and dismember food.

I wouldn't change its body mass from that of Spinosaurus. As I'll mention below, it will be a cooperative pack hunter, and it would already be large and powerful enough to hunt giant prey.

Things I would change: I would add some webbing between the fingers to make them better suited for aiding in aquatic locomotion, as with phocines.

I would make drastic changes to the skull and dental morphology to broaden its prey base in terms of body size. I would make the snout much more robust and oreinirostral. I would make the posterior end of the skull wider to accommodate far larger jaw muscles. I would make the teeth ziphodont and interlock with each other to maximize dismemberment ability. Overall, the skull and tooth morphology would be very much akin to that of Dakosaurus. This would not only allow this predatory marine dinosaur to tackle large prey, but I think it might still be able to hunt much smaller vertebrates, if orcas and their vast prey base from small to large animals are any indication (although to be fair, different orca populations specialize in different prey). So in terms of the size of its prey, this thing would be quite adaptable and hunt prey of varying sizes.

I would make the neck straighter and shorter, but most likely not anywhere near whale-levels of shortness. I would maybe make it similar in length and girth to that of Tyrannosaurus rex, and still allow sufficient flexibility for it to move its head downwards to adopt the phocine-style feeding strategy mentioned above.

I’d add a tail fluke akin to the ones seen in fast swimming active ocean predators like sharks, dolphins, and mosasaurs, to solidify it as a fully aquatic marine predator. Likewise, I’d make the feet rudders for added maneuverability instead of having a role in locomotion, as they seem to have in Spinosaurus; the tail alone could probably take care of that.

The body would need to be more fusiform in shape, so a deeper body would be in order. Maybe a robust orca-like body would be okay?

Behaviorally, I would at least have the animal hunt in cooperative packs like some modern mammalian carnivores today to ensure that this beast could tackle very large multi-ton prey. I was also considering orca-like intelligence (hey, exceptionally intelligent theropods exist today), but I'm thinking now that that's not even needed.

What I’m not sure of: I'm not sure about the sail. Like, what would or should I do with that? Should I turn it into a dorsal fin like what sharks and dolphins have?

[Supercommunist]

^Yeah not sure orca intelligence is necessary, you're hypothetical whale spino would be burning a lot of calories as is, especially if its going to be sharing its meals with a pack. Also, while I like the idea of marine animal with claws one concern I'd have regarding that is that would inherently involve a lot of collision, and two multi ton animals slamming into each other is probably not good for either parties health.

I am aware that whales like orcas and sperm whales are known to ram other large targets, but that seems to require a reinforced head. I think your hypothetical spino is going to need a specialized ribcage to prevent it from damaging its chest in case it slams into something while trying to latch its claws in.

[Infinity Blade]

The jaws would bite first, then the claws would grab the target. I had more what seals do in mind than it literally ramming into its prey with arms wide open. If it does do that, though, you'd probably be right about adaptations to withstand a multi ton collision.

[Supercommunist]

Another idea:

Eagle raptors (I know birds of prey are called raptors, shut up names are hard).

Of all the flying animals, eagles and other birds of prey are possibly the best suited for killing large prey. Not many other eight to fifteen pound animals can semi-regularly 80-150 pound animals.

Still they can be improved upon. So why not mix an eagle with a dromaeosaur?

Beaks can be deadly weapons, but generally speaking, as weapons they are inferior to jaws. The only advantage I see that a beak has over jaws is that a beak can gouge out eyes and may be more resistant to laceration. So, why not give the eagle a theropod's head with serrated teeth so it savage an animals back while it sink its massive talons into its back?

Besides that, I would make eagle raptors exhibit more sexually dimorphism than eagles, as a relatively modest decrease in size seems to enable male eagles to catch prey a larger female would struggle to. But instead of simply making the male smaller, why not fiddle around with its proportions so its built more like a peregrine which would make it better suited to killing other fliers, while the female can focus on murdering heavier terrestrial prey. The animals would usually stick to rabbit sized prey, but if they wanted to, they could pounce on much large inflexible herbivores that lack the ability to defend their backs,

So far, the two submissions have been pack hunters. Not sure that would be necessary, or even useful here. While harris hawks do hunt in packs, young birds of prey tend to eat other in the nest, indicating that they struggle to feed them. More mouths to feed wouldn't really help. That said, they could still benefit from added intelligence. Like the bearded vulture, I envision these animals being smart enough to pick up large bones or tough armored prey and drop their asses 5000 feet from the ground. With this technique, the eagle raptor wouldn't need to develop especially powerful jaws and could instead focus on gape and slashing teeth.

Also, might neat to make them exhibit tyrannosaurus-like ontogeny, where juvenile animals are more gracile and quicker so competition with adults is marginally decreased. Also, I'd give the chicks the ability to vomit like fulmar chicks, so they are not completely helpless in the nest like ospreys are. Seriously, I've seen like three videos were teenaged ospreys were kidnapped by owls.

[all]

 There is more than one way to make super predator. However the one i'm going with is utahraptor

Basically the animal would be the size of utahraptor. with long claws serrated teeth and all other features that utahraptor comes in

However in addition he would have much more developed sagittal crest. (greater bite force)

Venom similar to that of Komodo dragon

Heat sensors like those of pit vipers 

Ability to change color like octopus 

And separate venom duct for defense venom similar to defense venom of Conus Geographus 

Plus larger brain about the size of wolf's brain but as dense as that of a raven. With perfect surface cortical surface area to cortical thickness relationship. 
There are more ways to improve his brain but those would be too much to be allowed in this tread. The animal still would not be able to use tools because no opposable thumbs. 
 

[creature386]

Jun 10, 2020 2:30:02 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

Beaks can be deadly weapons, but generally speaking, as weapons they are inferior to jaws. The only advantage I see that a beak has over jaws is that a beak can gouge out eyes and may be more resistant to laceration. So, why not give the eagle a theropod's head with serrated teeth so it savage an animals back while it sink its massive talons into its back?

I've once read that beaks are better suited for flight than jaws due to being lighter, though I struggle to find a source. Why birds evolved beaks at all seems to be contentious, so I can't yet make a definite comment on how viable your idea would be.

[Supercommunist]

I've once read that beaks are better suited for flight than jaws due to being lighter, though I struggle to find a source. Why birds evolved beaks at all seems to be contentious, so I can't yet make a definite comment on how viable your idea would be.

I mean bats seem to do fine. Granted, the biggest bat in the word is like 4 pounds or something. Something else to consider, is that in terms of flight performance, the pterosaur quad launch approach seems to be superior to birds, yet evidently there seemed to be roles that their superficially superior anatomy seemed unable to fulfill. Such as really impressive predators. I mean, they have hatzegopteryx but that animal developed in an environment where there was little competition and the prey honestly didn't appear all the formidable either =.

[Infinity Blade]

Sericipterus had a 21 cm long skull filled with recurved, labiolingually compressed teeth, each outfitted with two sharp cutting edges. I actually think that would be a useful weapon against prey items its own size.

Also, there are many multi-cusped/serrated pterosaur teeth that were sharp and somewhat labiolingually compressed (link->), which makes me wonder if they would have been formidable weapons too.

And Caviramus was known to have had a powerfully constructed skull with rather large curved fangs at the front of the jaw. Said teeth also had strongly rugose enamel (something found in animals that specialize in eating hard prey, like Deinosuchus), and fossilized teeth sometimes had blunted or worn tips (link->). This was clearly a hard biting pterosaur, and with teeth like that just described, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a rather impressive, formidable predator (although, it may have incorporated plant matter into its diet too).

[Supercommunist]

Sericipterus had a 21 cm long skull filled with recurved, labiolingually compressed teeth, each outfitted with two sharp cutting edges. I actually think that would be a useful weapon against prey items its own size.

Also, there are many multi-cusped/serrated pterosaur teeth that were sharp and somewhat labiolingually compressed (link->), which makes me wonder if they would have been formidable weapons too.

And Caviramus was known to have had a powerfully constructed skull with rather large curved fangs at the front of the jaw. Said teeth also had strongly rugose enamel (something found in animals that specialize in eating hard prey, like Deinosuchus), and fossilized teeth sometimes had blunted or worn tips (link->). This was clearly a hard biting pterosaur, and with teeth like that just described, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a rather impressive, formidable predator (although, it may have incorporated plant matter into its diet too).

Bit of a late response, yeah I have heard of some of these pterosaurs but I think you need more than just a powerful weapon to be a good fighter. Spectral bats also have a gnarly set of chompers, and I think remember reading a paper that seems to suggest they might have one of the most potent bites pound for pound, still compared to birds they have a lot less predatory feats and its seems the vast majority of their avian prey is considerably smaller than themselves. You could chalk this up to them being studies less, but I recall reading it is easy to see what they've killed and eaten since all you have to do is take a peek at their nests, I think one of the issues with the pteorsaur/bat body plan in terms of combat is that their stance makes it difficult to let them use their feet as weapons and the way their wings are more vulnerable at all times, whereas birds can fold their wings on their back when not flying.

On a another note, what do you think is the most effective aquatic body plan? I remember past member coherentsheaf, was a fan of pliosaurs and said they would most likely been the most agile but a lot of time has passed since then.

[Infinity Blade]

Bit of a late response, yeah I have heard of some of these pterosaurs but I think you need more than just a powerful weapon to be a good fighter. Spectral bats also have a gnarly set of chompers, and I think remember reading a paper that seems to suggest they might have one of the most potent bites pound for pound, still compared to birds they have a lot less predatory feats and its seems the vast majority of their avian prey is considerably smaller than themselves. You could chalk this up to them being studies less, but I recall reading it is easy to see what they've killed and eaten since all you have to do is take a peek at their nests, I think one of the issues with the pteorsaur/bat body plan in terms of combat is that their stance makes it difficult to let them use their feet as weapons and the way their wings are more vulnerable at all times, whereas birds can fold their wings on their back when not flying.

You know, I was actually wondering what your stance on bats was for a while, since, if anything, their postcranial anatomy appears more reminiscent of a mammalian pterosaur than anything else. Glad to see that you're consistent.

On a another note, what do you think is the most effective aquatic body plan? I remember past member coherentsheaf, was a fan of pliosaurs and said they would most likely been the most agile but a lot of time has passed since then.

I think that's right; having four massive flippers --two on the front and two on the back-- is probably the most ideal bauplan for maneuverability underwater.

I used to think that the thunniform (think sharks, ichthyosaurs, tuna, and dolphins) body plan would allow for higher maximum swimming speeds than any other aquatic bauplan, but I'm not so sure of that anymore. Especially in shallow waters in the sea, cavitation is a fundamental constraint to how fast swimmers like fish and cetaceans can go. Up to a certain swimming speed, cavitation will cause damage to the fin tissue. Depending on the cross section of the caudal fin, that speed threshold is anywhere from 10-15 m/s (Iosilevskii & Weihs, 2008). While it may be possible for fish (which lack pain receptors in their tail fins) to temporarily cross that limit (and damage their fin tissues in the process), cetaceans probably can't cross it without feeling pain.

Lo and behold, a study on billfish and some other predatory fish found that none of them swim faster than 10 m/s; the fastest fish in that study was a sailfish going at 8.3 m/s (Svendsen et al., 2016). Likewise, the highest swimming speeds ever actually reported for bottlenose dolphins and orcas was ~15 m/s, and given the methodology behind those reports, I think it's safe to regard them as overestimates too (Fish & Rohr, 1999).

By contrast, I've read that gentoo penguins (maybe our closest locomotory analogues for plesiosaurs, even if not perfect) can swim at speeds of up to 36 km/h, though I've admittedly never read that in a scholarly source, so take this with a grain of salt.

[creature386]

Concerning pliosaurs, how do you think one could "improve" them? In my eyes, their jaws are pretty much perfect (combining high bite force with sharp teeth) and going by your discussion, they are really good at swimming, too. Sure, you could always add stuff like armor or intelligence, but especially the former is very likely to be as much trouble as it is worth.

[Infinity Blade]

Yeah, if I remember correctly metriorhynchids seem to have lost the armor of their ancestors to be able to traverse through water more efficiently.

I don't know how else I could improve upon pliosaurs, honestly.

[Supercommunist]

Concerning pliosaurs, how do you think one could "improve" them? In my eyes, their jaws are pretty much perfect (combining high bite force with sharp teeth) and going by your discussion, they are really good at swimming, too. Sure, you could always add stuff like armor or intelligence, but especially the former is very likely to be as much trouble as it is worth.

You could add a bunch of boring stuff: give them leatherback sea turtle papillae so they can eat jellyfish and other prey most animals don't find palatable. Ability to echolocate, assuming they already couldn't. Maybe, a few pointy quill-like structures on vital areas such as the throat and the rear to prevent being attacked from other animals but not covered to the point where it inhibits movement.

By contrast, I've read that gentoo penguins (maybe our closest locomotory analogues for plesiosaurs, even if not perfect) can swim at speeds of up to 36 km/h, though I've admittedly never read that in a scholarly source, so take this with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't sea turtles be a better fit?

Despite their huge carapace, it seems they are more agile than sharks.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Ug30db6gE

[Infinity Blade]

Wouldn't sea turtles be a better fit?

Despite their huge carapace, it seems they are more agile than sharks.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Ug30db6gE

Ugh, I knew I was forgetting something. However, even sea turtles use the front pair of flippers primarily for propulsion, so plesiosaurs are unique from sea turtles (and sea lions, and penguins) in how much the hind flippers contribute to it too.

Yeah, I'm not sure if this video counts, but this turtle was also able to keep up with a shark's maneuvers and repeatedly bite it (link->). And it's interesting that a sea turtle can do this with a massive carapace plus only having two large propulsive flippers, instead of four like a plesiosaur. I'd imagine a plesiosaur would pull this off even better.