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Post by Exalt on Oct 4, 2023 20:53:36 GMT 5
So a question then: what is different about this theoretical ice age that it kills us? Our species infancy occurred in the previous one. Is it just that other things we would need to survive are lost in the collapse?
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Post by zoograph on Oct 4, 2023 21:06:33 GMT 5
Could you elaborate a little on this? I am by no means very knowledgeable on sabre-toothed cats, but this seems to contradict what research I know, which suggests that Smilodon, for example, had a comparatively weaker bite force and skull than extant cats (e.g. McHenry et al. 2007) McHenry, C.R., Wroe, S., Clausen, P.D., Moreno, K. and Cunningham, E. 2007. Supermodeled sabercat, predatory behavior in Smilodon fatalis revealed by high-resolution 3D computer simulation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 104 (41): 16010–16015. Hmm, that seems to be correct. What I mostly thought about while watching an episode is that the jaw is way too small and narrow to support sabretooth, and that it may be mechanically implausible. Even Smilodon seems to have quite a large jaw compared to Snowstalker. Sorry for a late reply btw. |
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Post by theropod on Oct 4, 2023 21:46:43 GMT 5
Hmm my understanding is that jaw size is pretty irrelevant for a sabre-toothed predator, which is why adductor-driven bite forces are also fairly low (the emphasis being on achieving a large gape angle to be able to bring the canines to bear effectively), the skulls are relatively weak (especially in lateral loading scenarios, though possibly quite strong in dorsoventral loading at the canines) and a lot of the power used to stab with the canines is supplied by the neck muscles.
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Post by zoograph on Oct 4, 2023 23:16:38 GMT 5
Episode 4
“Prairies of Amazonia”
Ok, this one’s premise is interesting. South America had a lot of interesting organisms in its past (and even currently), so episodes centered around it may have some potential.
“But compared to what used to live here, this landscape is very sparsely populated”
Pampas, real-life analogue of this habitat, actually have a somewhat diverse biota comprised of many carnivorans, armadillos, opossums, (not so much) deer etc. I get that they wanted to save some money and justify only having 3 species (plus demonstrate jungle critters’ adaptions to a rapidly changed habitat), but this misses a lot of opportunities to create an interesting setting with migrants from Argentina.
“Creatures such as macaws, sloths and peccaries… They stand no chance…”
Well, the last one is not like the others. Peccaries are pretty much an American analogue of hogs, and this show already stated that these highly adaptable, omnivorous ungulates can easily survive even in a saline desert. Modern collared peccary can even adapt to an urban wildlife as a sort of “hoofed raccoon”, so they wouldn’t have problems at all in steppes. Bros, we missed hell pigs again, it’s so over…
Soon after this line, Babookaris appear. They have long tails… which is something uakari don’t really have. Once again, may be fixed by switching an ancestor to a capuchin monkey, who is more likely to retain their tail.
“Some of the [Amazonian monkeys] would evolve into species that will colonize the grasslands… [Uakaris] got intelligence, a highly evolved social system…”
Yeah, but again Capuchins will likely beat them at adapting. Because not only they have all of the advantages uakari has, they can also ALREADY use tools and are generally the most intelligent New World monkeys.
Oh, Carakiller… It’s reasonably interesting, like any terror bird. Still, they have a gigantic flaw in their design which easily sets this show in an age before 2005.
“We know that by manipulating genetics you can very easily trigger modern birds to develop a claw”
Real Phorurascidae didn’t have them (I guess that’s the idea being referenced here), and the birds who have use them very specifically. Hoatzin chicks use their claws to traverse tree branches until they learn how to fly. What’s the reason to evolve them here? They don’t really use it in hunting (despite the narration, in actual animation they attack Babookaris and Rattlebacks with beaks and legs), so they probably could’ve just retained normal wings.
Btw, I think they used a single shot of Carakiller screaming like five times or something. I get it, tight budget, but it is way too noticeable.
Also, Babookari beat is funky. Probably the first time I noticed the music here.
Their faces, on the other hand, are terrifying. Just pause at 12:43 and see for yourself.
With 10 minutes of an episode left, we finally meet the last critter. Grassland Rattleback. The main problem I have with it is that it’s way too reptilian. Mostly the fact that it lacks soft lips if you look at the model. How do younglings suck milk without them? Pangolins have small but functional lips, and so would this specimen.
“They need these extra degrees of protection because of what they eat – eggs”
What an insanely specific adaptation developed by an herbivorous rodent. You may assume it eats grubs or insects, like armadillo, but nope. A highly seasonal food that can not be obtained for the majority of the year. Of course, you can assume it’s a generalist ovivore, but the show sadly doesn’t tell you that.
Fire segment is cool. It features nice soundtrack, as well as interesting tension with different animals reacting to it. Until…
“The Rattleback’s scales are fireproof…”
You know it’s not Game of Thrones (TV show, not books), right? Keratin is a fairly flammable substance, from what I can gather (especially alpha type, which is the one mammals have – pangolin scutes, for example, are often burned down after successful anti-trafficking operations, and Rattleback ones are similar).
Final Thoughts. From a plot and idea perspective, the episode is actually quite nice. I think storylines in which animals struggle against their own habitats are always entertaining. The biggest problem is, of course, science. Uh, and also lack of real Pampa species. Their inclusion would’ve added an interesting plotline of jungle survivors facing grassland invaders. Gigapeccaries would’ve also been nice…
EPISODE 5 REVIEW SOON!!!
The nightmare is coming…
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Post by creature386 on Oct 4, 2023 23:39:55 GMT 5
So a question then: what is different about this theoretical ice age that it kills us? Our species infancy occurred in the previous one. Is it just that other things we would need to survive are lost in the collapse? The lack of megafauna to hunt for meat coupled with the difficulty of agriculture and animal husbandry in glacial climates is a difference I can think of. Granted that still lives some open questions (surely, humans could still find something to eat in the equatorial regions, couldn't they?), but the few isolated pockets of humanity remaining might have been vulnerable to local environmental disturbances. You are right though that those questions aren't easy to answer. Humans are notoriously good at solving problems (and, granted, also at causing them, but that's not the scenario presented here). At the very least, the documentary could have provided us with a five-minute prologue that shows the last modern humans freezing to death in the new Ice Age with an explanation of what's different now or something. @the Review itself. It's interesting that, even apart from humans, primates as a whole don't seem to fare so well, seeing how the babookari is implied (and outright stated in the promotional material) to be the last of its kind. I guess that one can be blamed on humans endangering most of their tree-dwelling buddies. The carakiller seems like rather blatant attempt to pander to the terror bird and raptor-loving part of the paleo crowd, even though it's not that implausible by the standards overall. And don't get me wrong, it's a really cool creature (I think I even had one as my profile pic for a while). There's of course the question of how competitive it would be against mammalian predators, but the showrunners take the decline of mammals as a given anyway. Looking forward to the next review. Can't wait for your assessment of the mole-birds.  |
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Post by zoograph on Oct 5, 2023 0:10:29 GMT 5
@the Review itself. It's interesting that, even apart from humans, primates as a whole don't seem to fare so well, seeing how the babookari is implied (and outright stated in the promotional material) to be the last of its kind. I guess that one can be blamed on humans endangering most of their tree-dwelling buddies. The carakiller seems like rather blatant attempt to pander to the terror bird and raptor-loving part of the paleo crowd, even though it's not that implausible by the standards overall. And don't get me wrong, it's a really cool creature (I think I even had one as my profile pic for a while). There's of course the question of how competitive it would be against mammalian predators, but the showrunners take the decline of mammals as a given anyway. Regarding the first point, I didn't touch it because it's not stated outright in the show. Still, it's very weird that the entire primate group went almost extinct so fast. Primates are highly adaptable - they survived K-Pg (if Purgatorius is one of our own ancestors, which seems to be likely), PETM, Azolla Event, Grand Coupure and all of Ice Ages. And considering tropical uakaris managed to survive, it would be even MORE likely that terrestrial monkeys like baboons would survive. Overall, the reasoning for their extinction is thin af, but not as much as rodents. In case of carakillers they can do fine with mammals around, if you remember North American Titanis. |
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Post by Exalt on Oct 5, 2023 2:31:57 GMT 5
I kind of appreciate having two different reviews on the series, for the different perspectives.
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Post by zoograph on Oct 5, 2023 22:49:22 GMT 5
Episode 5
“Cold Kansas Desert”
Desert again? I get it, you want to show as little models as possible, but because of that this show loses a lot of potential stories set in more humid ecosystems.
Desert Rattlebacks are the first presented species here, and they look much more realistic than their southern cousins. In fact, I think that’s how Grassland Rattleback should’ve looked. Also, could’ve help save the money and introduce to near-cosmopolitan species in different habitats.
“Rattlebacks evolved from South American ancestors…”
In olden days, I would’ve been skeptical of this possible Dollo’s law violation, as desert species looks slightly more rodent-like and less specialized compared to a grassland one. Nowadays however, this former biological axiom is becoming less and less convincing (thanks, stick insects), so I won’t criticize the lack of it.
Ooof… Spinks.
Here we go, our first checkpoint. An animal which is completely fictional. Its very existence relies on a lot of contrivances in worldbuilding. Most mammals have to die out, which doesn’t happen yet with so many rodents presented in this setting. Underground has to be more advantageous than just digging roots from the surface (like modern galliforms do), but most of the time food is way harder to get by "swimming" through soil. 5 million years has to be just enough for terrestrial species adapted for flying to do a 180 and completely change their environment. It’s telling that throughout the entire Cenozoic mammals had numerous such forms and birds had none. So, I don’t get the narrator saying that it’s easy for quail to just adapt. Instead, it’s pretty much impossible.
“Digging and living in tunnels might seem strange, but today there are birds that do something similar - puffins”
No, not really. First of all, puffins dig with claws on their feet, not with weirdly changed wings. Second thing is that they only dig nests for their offspring, not create tunnels 24/7. In pretty much everything else puffins are normal seabirds. Badgers or even canines can dig holes for their pups, but that doesn’t mean they are automatically the same as moles. So, overall, it’s a pretty weak defense.
Deathgleaners are also weird. I know, I know, Dixon likes bats since the days of Batavia, but the idea of bats dominating any niche aside from cave/night/rainforest ones is implausible. Their wings are not the ones pterosaurs had, as they tend to overheat quickly. The only saving point is that it’s a cold desert and sunlight is not as damaging, which is immediately negated by the abundance of different birds. Corvids with their high adaptability will be just as cool and also more realistic.
“[Spink] males emerge and start their ritual dance”
Hmm, strange. They are strongly implied to be nearly or completely blind, and I get that most females judge males by their sounds. What’s the point in sexual dimorphism then? Why is their coloration so different? Is it for the viewer?
“In 5 million years’ time, this certainly doesn’t look like Kansas anymore”
Fire emoji fire emoji
Final Thoughts. So here we are. We finally crossed Rubicon. In most of following episodes creators will bend the biology as much as possible to achieve favorable outcomes. Story is also mid, with it being inferior to the previous one. I guess it’s because of my “South American weirdness” bias.
EPISODE 6 REVIEW SOON!!!
Beware…
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Post by creature386 on Oct 6, 2023 19:44:36 GMT 5
There we have it. The point of no return. Future reviews are promising to be very entertaining. At least the producers were kind enough to provide us with the spink as an early warning sign. (Seriously though, inaccuracies aside, the later creatures are pretty cool, so at least we get to have some compensation for the ever-increasing artistic license.)
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Post by zoograph on Oct 6, 2023 21:07:16 GMT 5
Episode 6
“Waterland”
Thank God Almighty, not a desert! Hallelujah!
Okay, we start with Toraton. As I said previously, we’re in a territory now where most animals are highly controversial, and this beast is no exception. You see, turtles are not sauropods. Long-necked dinosaurs actually have quite a lot of adaptions for their ginormous size. First of all, they had lightweight bones as one of measures to not become too heavy. Turtle armor is also a problem, as it can possibly constrain body growth (endothermy might help accelerate bone development, but it seems unlikely as this reptilian order never had such forms as far as we know). Even worse is the lack of air sacs and the inability of turtles to expand their lungs (thank the shell), which would be especially horrible in bigger sizes. Overall, the more look, the more you notice implausibility. There’s a reason sauropod only existed once in evolutionary history, after all. And they probably won’t ever appear again.
Swampus is even more problematic. The idea that in a modern world, where vertebrates and arthropods had conquered most of the land (with a much smaller representation of other taxa like annelids and mollusks), you can suddenly witness another aquatic (not just aquatic, marine) group colonizing shores is undoubtedly weird. Cephalopods missed their chance, as they never even managed to leave saline waters during more than 500 million years of their existence, and likely won’t ever get it again. So as fascinating the idea of a land squid is, that’s probably a complete fiction.
“A specialized lining on the inside the body cavity has a very rich blood supply – like a lung…”
Or they could’ve just evolved skin breathing. All modern amphibious species have these adaptations, and some of them don’t even have lungs (Plethodontidae). It’s a minor problem, but narrator is very proud about this justification of his fantasy animal, and totally overlooks another issue…
“We have modern examples of that now – mudskippers…”
Yeah, but the only reason they exist is salinity of mangroves. If amphibians could’ve survived in such habitats, there would be none of them. And this is a problem – if fish groups can evolve to this niche first (100 million years before fictional Swampus), they will probably do it again in the future. Also, mudskippers are much hardier in regards to osmoregulation, as their kidneys are much more effective. Some species (like genus Oxuderces) can even live in fresh water, something impossible for cephalopods. Just imagine what would happen to them in a rainstorm…
“A plant traps rainwater – a private pool in which crab [and by extension, Swampus] raise their young…”
These parents must really hate their children. Creators really should’ve replaced octopuses with fish – much less questions would’ve been raised.
Btw, this expert’s beard is gorgeous. He’s like a real-life Pan.
Lurkfish is the only animal which is not controversial. Typical big predatory fish, which is quite cool actually.
Ok, back to big guys.
“A herd of toratons…”
Is it realistic? We don’t really know any turtles (both alive and extinct) who are social. Still, not the biggest problem with this creature.
“120 tons – that’s bigger than biggest dinosaurs!”
Yeah, that’s correct. But would our planet even be able to support a beast equal in mass to 2-9 Giraffatitans? Even modern elephants who are not as big can completely destroy vegetation in reserves. Can hardly digestible plant matter that needs to be eaten regularly support their bodies?
“They solve mating problem with cloacal kiss…”
Maybe that’s censorship speaking, but many turtle males would probably just use their mobile penises. Possibly the only problem I’m kind of glad is present.
Final Thoughts. I mostly gave up on trying to analyze the plot, as it’s mostly non-existent or very fragmented. Still, the episode features quite a nice break from the arid 5 MA setting. The thing that sours my judgement – utterly implausible animals – is still here, and is probably the worst so far. They REALLY wanted to have discount Mesozoic, and it shows. Thankfully, creatures won’t get as absurd for a while, so I’m happy at least in this perspective.
EPISODE 7 REVIEW SOON!!!
Beware…
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Post by zoograph on Oct 6, 2023 21:08:00 GMT 5
There we have it. The point of no return. Future reviews are promising to be very entertaining. At least the producers were kind enough to provide us with the spink as an early warning sign. (Seriously though, inaccuracies aside, the later creatures are pretty cool, so at least we get to have some compensation for the ever-increasing artistic license.) Yeah, they are fun. Though I prefer unrealistic animals on different planets at least (like Darwin IV). |
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Post by Exalt on Oct 6, 2023 21:37:37 GMT 5
Episode 6
“Waterland” Swampus is even more problematic. Yeah, but the only reason they exist is salinity of mangroves. If amphibians could’ve survived in such habitats, there would be none of them. And this is a problem – if fish groups can evolve to this niche first (100 million years before fictional Swampus), they will probably do it again in the future. Also, mudskippers are much hardier in regards to osmoregulation, as their kidneys are much more effective. Some species (like genus Oxuderces) can even live in fresh water, something impossible for cephalopods. Just imagine what would happen to them in a rainstorm…
“A plant traps rainwater – a private pool in which crab [and by extension, Swampus] raise their young…”
These parents must really hate their children. Creators really should’ve replaced octopuses with fish – much less questions would’ve been raised.Lurkfish is the only animal which is not controversial. Typical big predatory fish, which is quite cool actually. “120 tons – that’s bigger than biggest dinosaurs!”Yeah, that’s correct. But would our planet even be able to support a beast equal in mass to 2-9 Giraffatitans? Even modern elephants who are not as big can completely destroy vegetation in reserves. Can hardly digestible plant matter that needs to be eaten regularly support their bodies? “They solve mating problem with cloacal kiss…”Maybe that’s censorship speaking, but many turtle males would probably just use their mobile penises. Possibly the only problem I’m kind of glad is present. I'm surprised to hear that the Swampus is somehow the more implausible of the two.
If someone would elaborate on the area I bolded, I would appreciate that because the first part confuses me, and for the second, I'm uninformed about this Cephalopod and fresh water interaction.
Thank you for appreciating the Lurkfish. I know that they basically just took something that already exists and fired the Awesome beam at it briefly, but it's cool, darn it!
Now that I have more of an idea of how this works than I did as a kid, 120 tons for a land animal sounds ludicrous. Will it's descendants be like the World Turtle of mythology? Well, it won't have descendants, but that's for another time.
Huh, I was lead to believe that they didn't have penises.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Oct 6, 2023 21:57:01 GMT 5
Here's what I said in my review of TFiW's creatures. Basically, the biggest problem with the toraton isn't even its immense size. If it kept the slow metabolism of its tortoise ancestors, it shouldn't even be able to grow to the size of one Giraffatitan.
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Post by zoograph on Oct 6, 2023 22:14:32 GMT 5
Episode 6
“Waterland” Swampus is even more problematic. Yeah, but the only reason they exist is salinity of mangroves. If amphibians could’ve survived in such habitats, there would be none of them. And this is a problem – if fish groups can evolve to this niche first (100 million years before fictional Swampus), they will probably do it again in the future. Also, mudskippers are much hardier in regards to osmoregulation, as their kidneys are much more effective. Some species (like genus Oxuderces) can even live in fresh water, something impossible for cephalopods. Just imagine what would happen to them in a rainstorm…
“A plant traps rainwater – a private pool in which crab [and by extension, Swampus] raise their young…”
These parents must really hate their children. Creators really should’ve replaced octopuses with fish – much less questions would’ve been raised.Lurkfish is the only animal which is not controversial. Typical big predatory fish, which is quite cool actually. “120 tons – that’s bigger than biggest dinosaurs!”Yeah, that’s correct. But would our planet even be able to support a beast equal in mass to 2-9 Giraffatitans? Even modern elephants who are not as big can completely destroy vegetation in reserves. Can hardly digestible plant matter that needs to be eaten regularly support their bodies? “They solve mating problem with cloacal kiss…”Maybe that’s censorship speaking, but many turtle males would probably just use their mobile penises. Possibly the only problem I’m kind of glad is present. I'm surprised to hear that the Swampus is somehow the more implausible of the two.
If someone would elaborate on the area I bolded, I would appreciate that because the first part confuses me, and for the second, I'm uninformed about this Cephalopod and fresh water interaction.
Thank you for appreciating the Lurkfish. I know that they basically just took something that already exists and fired the Awesome beam at it briefly, but it's cool, darn it!
Now that I have more of an idea of how this works than I did as a kid, 120 tons for a land animal sounds ludicrous. Will it's descendants be like the World Turtle of mythology? Well, it won't have descendants, but that's for another time.
Huh, I was lead to believe that they didn't have penises.
Well, what I meant is that the whole idea of cephalopod land invasion is weird. Freshwater coasts are mostly populated by amphibians, so unless they all go extinct (which is weird, they are declining fast but I don't believe the entire group will disappear, especially with humans gone) no new animal groups will enter their niches. Mudskippers adapted to salty mangrove coasts mainly because amphibians can't live there. So even if they will go extinct, it is more likely for fish to reenter this niche as they have much more efficient kidneys than cephalopods. As for freshwater, octopuses can't live there because their kidneys are not adapted to small amounts of salt - for example, cephalopods are not know in Black Sea where the salinity is 20 promille lower than the ocean. They never really invented any measures to avoid it, so I guess even later in their evolution they won't do it. |
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Post by Exalt on Oct 6, 2023 22:17:07 GMT 5
Thank you.
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