Giant theropods overview thread

[creature386]

I have to say, impressive skull!

[theropod]

indeed. I think it's a shame that noone bothered to properly publish and measure a reconstruction (I think that one is from an exhibit, you can see it belongs to some kind of model), but things could be worse, it is indeed very well described when compared to many other theropods (the paper is a proper osteology), even tough it lacks a complete skull restoration and skeletal.

[blaze]

I'll make the same comment here.

CPS 1002 is a 95cm scapulocoracoid, it is incomplete but the restored length is ~100cm, the scapula alone is only ~82cm.



For comparison, Acrocanthosaurus (NCSM 14345.) scapula is 97cm. (Currie & Carpenter 2000) and the scapulocoracoid of Sue is ~130cm (Bruchu 2003).

EDIT: Why do the images don't work? I think I'm having the same problems as you theropod.

[Grey]

I'm checking this with Life.

[theropod]

Do the images have to be approved for by an admin or something like that?

Thanks for the clarification blaze, I have seen your post on carnivora. It appears sometimes Mortimers figures aren't precise enough.

[creature386]

Feb 18, 2013 1:45:31 GMT 5 theropod said:

Do the images have to be approved for by an admin or something like that?

They don't have to be, I were able to post images in my profiles.

[creature386]

Feb 14, 2013 2:20:26 GMT 5 Life said:

creature386

That would be great effort.

Well, at the moment, my computer appearently has problems, so making longer posts (especially resarching), will be hard.

[creature386]

For now, I think I will include Suchomimus, Spinosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Mapusaurus, Giganotosaurus, Tyrannosaurus, Saurophaganax, Acrocanthosaurus, Tarbosaurus and Allosaurus.
So far I have this (note that I only took published stuff, nothing from blogs and I didn't take Therrien and Hendersons stuff, exept for their cube law estimate, which is 11,7-16,7t):

Sources:

Sereno, P. C., A. L. Beck, D. B. Dutheuil, B. Gado, H. C. E. Larson, G. H. Lyon, J. D. Marcot, O. W. M. Rauhut, R. W. Sadlier, C. A. Sidor, D. D. Varricchio, G. P. Wilson, and J. A. Wilson. 1998. A long-snouted predatory dinosaur from Africa and the evolution of the spinosaurids. Science 282:1298–1302.

Therrien, F.; und Henderson, D. M. (2007). "My theropod is bigger than yours … or not: estimating body size from skull length in theropods". Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 27 (1): 108–115.

Seebacher, F. 2001. A new method to calculate allometric length-mass relationships of dinosaurs. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 21: 51–60. 535–547.

Sereno, P. C., D. B. Dutheil, M. Iarochene, H. C. E. Larsson, G. H. Lyon, P. M. Magwene, C. A. Sidor, D. J. Varricchio, and J. A. Wilson. 1996. Predatory dinosaurs from the Sahara and the Late Cretaceous faunal differentiation. Science 272:986–991Body Size in Mammalian Paleobiology. Cambridge University

M. T. Carrano, R. B. J. Benson, S. D. Sampson (2012): The phylogeny of Tetanurae (Dinosauria: Theropoda). In: Journal of Systematic Palaeontology. 10, Nr. 2, 2012, S. 233

Coria and Currie, 2006. A new carcharodontosaurid (Dinosauria, Theropoda) from the Upper Cretaceous of Argentina. Geodiversitas. 28(1), 71-118.

Calvo and Coria, 2000. New specimen of Giganotosaurus carolinii supports it as the largest theropod ever found. Gaia 15, pp. 117-122.

Holtz Jr., T.R., Molnar, R.E., and Currie, P.J. (2004). Basal Tetanurae.
(I used this for measuring the skull of the Giganotosaurus paratype)

G. V. Mazzetta, P. Christiansen, R. A. Farina: Giants and bizarres: body size of some southern South American Cretaceous dinosaurs. In: Historical Biology. 16, Nr. 2-4, 2004, S. 71–83

Henderson, D.M. 1986. Estimating the masses and centers of mass
of extinct animals by 3-D mathematical slicing. Paleobiology
25, 88 – 106.

Blanco, R. Ernesto; Mazzetta, Gerardo V. (2001). A new approach to evaluate the cursorial ability of the giant theropod Giganotosaurus carolinii. Acta Palaeontologica Polonica 46 (2): 193–202.

John R. Hutchinson mail, Karl T. Bates, Julia Molnar, Vivian Allen, Peter J. Makovicky (2011) A Computational Analysis of Limb and Body Dimensions in Tyrannosaurus rex with Implications for Locomotion, Ontogeny, and Growth

Bates, K.T., Manning, P.L., Hodgetts, D. and Sellers, W.I. (2009). Beckett, Ronald. ed. "Estimating Mass Properties of Dinosaurs Using Laser Imaging and 3D Computer Modelling"

T. R. Holtz "Dinosaurs: The Most Complete, Up-to-Date Encyclopedia for Dinosaur Lovers of All Ages" (2011)

G. S. Paul: "The Princeton Field Guide to Dinosaurs" (2010)

G. S. Paul: "Predatory Dinosaurs of the world" (1988)

Christiansen, P. and R. A. Fariña. 2004. Mass prediction in theropod dinosaurs. Historical Biology 16:85–92.

Currie, P. J. and K. Carpenter. 2000. A new specimen of Acrocanthosaurus atokensis (Theropoda, Dinosauria) from the Lower Cretaceous Antlers Formation (Lower Cretaceous, Aptian) of Oklahoma, USA. Geodiversitas 22:207–246.

Alexander, R. McN. 1985. Body support, scaling, and allometry; pp. 26–37 in M. Hildebrand, D. Bramble, K. F. Liem, and D. B. Wake (eds.), Functional Vertebrate Morphology. Belknap Press of Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachussetts.

[theropod]

Excellent table! I collected some info on particularly large Mapusaurus specimens (and there are several), I´ll post it the next time I login on my other OS where I have saved it.

There is a 45ft lenght figure for Carcharodontosaurus, given by Sereno on his website.

also, Mortimer gave the 13m/6t for OMNH 1935, I guess that´s the specimen you mean.
dml.cmnh.org/2002Aug/msg00194.html

11m would still be a valid lower end figure for this indiovidual, however I think it is very conservative. the largest femur belongs to a specimen that is approximately 11m long too.

[creature386]

^I have read Mortimers estimate in the dml, but that isn't published, so I didn't take it.

[theropod]

well, 13m isn´t published either, neither are lots of the other estimates (there is no precise figure for Mapusaurus for example, 12,6m was mortimers estimate, I don´t think the lower figure for Saurophaganax was in a paper either...)

Anyway, I´ll post my Mapusaurus stuff later, just to be complete. There are several specimens that are all in the approximate size range of giga holotype-carcha neotype

[creature386]

Feb 27, 2013 17:32:40 GMT 5 theropod said:

well, 13m isn´t published either

I have counted books.
They may not be peer reviewed, but Darren Naish has written a very positive review, about Holtz's book.

[theropod]

MCF-PVPH-108.145; pubic shaft 110% of Giganotosaurus holotype (Coria & Currie, 2006)
MCF-PVPH-108.185; scapular fragment; ~giganotosaurus-sized? (Coria & Currie, 2006) [they wrote it was similar in size, however they wrote the same about 145, which they later give more detailed figures on, explicitely stating it was 10% bigger, so there is some margin of tolerance here]
MCF-PVPH-108.202; 860mm long fibula two centimetres more than in Giganotosaurus (=103% that of Giganotosaurus) (Coria & Currie, 2006)

MCF-PVPH-108.2 and MCF-PVPH-108.115; ~giganotosaurus-sized? (Coria & Currie, 2006) [one is a dentary, one is a maxilla
I didn't measure the maxilla, but Mystery Meat on carnivora made a reconsturction putting it at around the same skull size the dentary specimen in my reconstruction ended up at]

[Grey]

One modest observation/suggestion.

I feel, from looking at real skulls or mounts that the T. rex skull model is quite not enough deep. Similiar-sized carnosaurs have certainly a higher snout structure but this model of T. rex sounds too shallow and flat.

I appreciate the attempt of reconstruct the skull of Giganotosaurus based on modern depiction of a more typical carnosaur-allosaur-like skull but why not use the model recently proposed by Hartman ? This model sounds on the contrary of T. rex far too deep, even compared to Carcharodontosaurus.

[theropod]

This model is based on the holotypic material and Acrocanthosaurus, it has little to do with typical carnosaurs or allosaurs, the size bases on the quadrate lenght (the scalebars in the description which I could send to you are unfortunately wrong). Everything you see there is the correct size, at best the whole thing might have been more elongated in places like the front of the maxilla, nasals and posterior maxillary main body (I'll see what I can do, several versions have never done me any harm).
Hartman didn't make a skull reconstruction, did he? He included a rough outline in his skeletal, and it isn't all too different from mine. Basing something on it would be pointless, after all he doesn't have more material either. He might have done a bit of said changes, but not much, after all the total lenght of the skull isn't too different. The skull shape, especially the maxilla of giganotosaurus makes it seem even deeper than it is, but there are definitely considerable differences between it and Carcharodontosaurus.

T. rex bases on the dewarped skull of sue, which simply isn't that deep:
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvCyHGTS4eME0JAZFYkfqKhix1l98mD8AAPIoCsTAFaFWjiz5dvg
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSY2DwJ6FZoR6nMFqfSnP2WDs8GkemYh-4ZO4TStAqCclOTMm5P
you probably have other specimens, like stan in mind when envisioning a T. rex skull:

the maximum depth of the original is merely 45cm, and you have to keep in mind the deeper it gets the narrower it must logically get. when retaining it as 80-90cm wide, there is no way it could have been much deeper than the