Fragillimus335
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Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jul 11, 2013 5:48:09 GMT 5
Here's some fun info, I think we can put the, "which theropod had the longest skull" debate to rest... Hartman's MSMN V4047 with the rostrum scaled to 99cm. Total skull length to the sagittal crest is a whopping 1.98 meters. Now, in my opinion Hartman still has the heads of his Spinos a little too large, and shaving them back to ~185 cm makes the entire animal ~16.8 meters long.
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blaze
Paleo-artist
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Post by blaze on Jul 11, 2013 9:00:54 GMT 5
Are you sure you didn't use his old skeletal? Hartman estimates MSMN V4047 at 15.6m in axial length.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 10:29:58 GMT 5
Are you sure you didn't use his old skeletal? Hartman estimates MSMN V4047 at 15.6m in axial length. His 2012 skeletal has a slightly larger head compared to the body. The heads stayed the same though aside from size relative to the rest of the body. The thing about fragmentary taxa is, we can achieve our own results, as long as they have a basis, fit the known material, and not completely made up. I estimated MSNM V4047's skull length at ~1.86 meters based on a private collection specimen, smaller than the result fragillimus335 came up using shartman's reconstruction(then again, the sagittal crest of the juvenile specimen is pathetic, so the total length is from the snout to the quadrate)
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Dakotaraptor
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Used to be Metriacanthosaurus
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Post by Dakotaraptor on Jul 11, 2013 11:58:46 GMT 5
Here's some fun info, I think we can put the, "which theropod had the longest skull" debate to rest... Hartman's MSMN V4047 with the rostrum scaled to 99cm. Total skull length to the sagittal crest is a whopping 1.98 meters. Now, in my opinion Hartman still has the heads of his Spinos a little too large, and shaving them back to ~185 cm makes the entire animal ~16.8 meters long. You like to make your favourite animals that big as possible not matter how your measurement are innacurrate, mr.liberalist. You sound like you try to beat Dal Sasso. Don't you? But...
When i used 99 cm rostrum, it fits pretty well to 175 cm Hartman's skull. But i used his old Spinosaurus, however new one doesn't seem to have different skull shape, only it has proportionally smaller skull.
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Post by theropod on Jul 11, 2013 15:52:44 GMT 5
Wow, that nuchal crest on the Spinosaurus seems really damn elongated (it's a transverse crest, serving as a neck-muscle attachment, while a sagittal crest is directed in the sagittal plane and serves as an attachment for jaw closers).
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Fragillimus335
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Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jul 11, 2013 19:51:57 GMT 5
Here's some fun info, I think we can put the, "which theropod had the longest skull" debate to rest... Hartman's MSMN V4047 with the rostrum scaled to 99cm. Total skull length to the sagittal crest is a whopping 1.98 meters. Now, in my opinion Hartman still has the heads of his Spinos a little too large, and shaving them back to ~185 cm makes the entire animal ~16.8 meters long. You like to make your favourite animals that big as possible not matter how your measurement are innacurrate, mr.liberalist. You sound like you try to beat Dal Sasso. Don't you? But...
When i used 99 cm rostrum, it fits pretty well to 175 cm Hartman's skull. But i used his old Spinosaurus, however new one doesn't seem to have different skull shape, only it has proportionally smaller skull. Well then, you are wrong. I'm being very conservative, as I took zero liberties when measuring this skull. The total length is actually 1.92-1.93m and to the quadrate, 1.81m. Still easily the longest theropod skull.
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Post by theropod on Jul 11, 2013 19:59:03 GMT 5
You may both be right. The nuchal crest in Hartman's version protrudes far further posteriorly. It is by far the furthest point from the premaxilla, while in Dal sasso it doesn't protrude further than the squamosal. So if Dal Sasso's maximum skull lenght was 1,75m, it can fit Hartman's skull in terms of size even tough the latter is longer at maximum.
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Fragillimus335
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Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jul 11, 2013 19:59:19 GMT 5
Wow, that nuchal crest on the Spinosaurus seems really damn elongated (it's a transverse crest, serving as a neck-muscle attachment, while a sagittal crest is directed in the sagittal plane and serves as an attachment for jaw closers). Huh, Hartman called it a sagittal crest... but regardless, measured to the "crest of some kind" that skull is ~1.92-1.95 meters long! Even measuring to the quadrate it's 1.81 meters long. I was off a couple pixels.
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Post by creature386 on Jul 11, 2013 20:05:07 GMT 5
shaving them back to ~185 cm makes the entire animal ~16.8 meters long. How would a 185 cm skull make Spinosaurus 16,8 m long? What did you use as a basis for that?
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Dakotaraptor
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Used to be Metriacanthosaurus
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Post by Dakotaraptor on Jul 11, 2013 20:26:29 GMT 5
@fragilimus You're very conservative? Heh... Dal Sasso's rostrum matchs up pretty well to the 175 cm Hartman's skull, I checked. Just you don't admit to making mistakes and you must blame someone. Except Parietal Hartman's and Dal Sasso's skull reconstruction are nearly indentical. I will show pic later.
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Post by theropod on Jul 11, 2013 20:38:15 GMT 5
To the quadrate regardless of whether that's true or not (I'll check as soon as I find a high-resolution, up-to-date version), the maximum skull lenght bases on a more elongate, enlarged crest (which could make sense as an attachment for strong dorsiflexive musculature), and cannot be directly compared to an estimate that recosntructs a smaller one.
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blaze
Paleo-artist
Posts: 766
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Post by blaze on Jul 11, 2013 20:45:54 GMT 5
Hartman says he reconstructs the skull of MSMN V4047 at 163cm to the quadrate, how are you measuring at 181cm?
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Post by theropod on Jul 11, 2013 21:22:03 GMT 5
Maybe the pmx-sq measurement would get slightly longer (only a few cm), like that it is not exactly horizontal, but this sufficiently demonstrates the point. Hartman's pmx-sq is a little longer than Dal Sasso's, but not much. It may approach 1,8m (hehe, I told you so, evil laughter...). At the same time maximum skull lenght is much longer without the skull being much larger, simply because of the large parietal/supraoccipital crest that protrudes backwards. Inferences: 1) even tough Cau would certainly like us to think so, Dal Sasso wasn't liberal with his skull reconstruction, as once again demonstrated (I also recommend reading this) 2) a skull lenght of 1,6-1,8m is probably best to assume 3) Hartman's skull is more or less the same size as Dal Sassos, but longer in maximum lenght due to the protruding crest
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 21:47:45 GMT 5
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Dakotaraptor
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Used to be Metriacanthosaurus
Posts: 193
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Post by Dakotaraptor on Jul 11, 2013 23:23:56 GMT 5
Like i said the only difference between Hartman's and Dal Sasso's reconstructions is Parietal...
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