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Post by creature386 on Nov 27, 2013 23:10:27 GMT 5
I don't think they are a good analogy. Their beak is in a far higher position and therefore striking downward is a lot easier.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 27, 2013 23:20:16 GMT 5
That's not exactly my point (though one person suspects they could strike down at the legs of taller theropods). My point was that they could strike downward like them (with horns). Though, I admit the height here in this battle can be an issue.
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Post by theropod on Nov 28, 2013 1:18:08 GMT 5
But that's only extremely superficial. It's quite obvious a claw mounted on a flexible limb and a forward-curving horn mounted on the snout belonging to a large-skulled, short-necked animal are not functionally comparable without any further reason to do so. Centrosaurus is not comparable, I must repeat. You can look at many horn shapes of this genus, from somewhat rostrally to somewhat caudally curved. However all of them are in the range that would be fully suited for an ordinary stabbing motion (the main direction being always up from the snout), and most, I repeat, are pretty close to Styracosaurus or rhino territory regarding the curvature, pointing pretty close to a 90° angle. Centrosaurus actually doesn't even approach a comparable degree of rostral curvature, let along a horn that runs paralell to the direction of the snout. Einiosaurus is an entirely different thing, the horn faces entirely rostrally in all specimens. www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022710.g005&representation=PNG_MIf it does any notable damage it may be considerable due to the impact forces. However that depends on whether it could actually bring its horn to bear properly despite the location. Are Hippo jaws? we don't know that. I personally think those beaks were an adaption suiting both very well That's the problem, the beak likely didn't have the gape size to place an effective bite on something with a big girth, hence the possible downward stroke. |
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Post by creature386 on Nov 28, 2013 1:59:46 GMT 5
This is true, but what Godzillasaurus meant is that the horn would face downward, because of the way it is located (the beak faces downward too) and not because of it's shape. This picture only shows the horn cores. The position in the living animal has to be reconstructed. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 28, 2013 2:07:26 GMT 5
Yes, but the horn of centrosaurus would face rather forward (or upwards depending on the head posture) than downward, as opposed to that of Einiosaurus. There's still a marked difference in curvature between these two, even if we take the most extreme examples for Centrosaurus.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 28, 2013 2:28:21 GMT 5
I completely agree with this (I have read the paper where you took the image from), I was just talking about the posture of the horn.
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 29, 2013 1:16:03 GMT 5
Some centrosaurus specimens actually do have a rather abrupt curve in their nasal horn. In general, however, centrosaurus' nasal horn was probably straighter than einiosaurus, whether pointing back or forewords.
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Post by Runic on Nov 29, 2013 1:22:16 GMT 5
The ceratopsian probably enacted the hook and pull method rather than stabbing like dromaeosaurs mainly did judging from the horn. Like sticking a curved hook into your body and then violently ripping it out. Quite a gruesome image.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 29, 2013 1:40:47 GMT 5
I've never seen such a Centrosaurus specimen in which the horn curvature is extreme. Maybe some have a slight forward or backward curvature (depending on the specimen), but not that extreme.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 29, 2013 2:16:38 GMT 5
I didn't do so either. I would like to see such a picture. Godzillasaurus, are you sure they are from centrosaurus and not some unidentified centrosaurine (like USNM 16512 in the figure 13 of the PLoS article theropod took his image from)? |
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Post by Runic on Nov 29, 2013 5:30:10 GMT 5
I've never seen such a Centrosaurus specimen in which the horn curvature is extreme. Maybe some have a slight forward or backward curvature (depending on the specimen), but not that extreme. it doesn't need to be extreme. The hook and pull method can work with any type of horn. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 29, 2013 5:56:11 GMT 5
I've never seen such a Centrosaurus specimen in which the horn curvature is extreme. Maybe some have a slight forward or backward curvature (depending on the specimen), but not that extreme. it doesn't need to be extreme. The hook and pull method can work with any type of horn. I was replying to Godzillasaurus who made the claim that some Centrosaurus specimens had an abrupt curvature in their horns, to which I replied saying I've never seen one like that. I never doubted this "hook and pull" method. |
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 29, 2013 6:32:45 GMT 5
In reply to creature and dinopithecus:    All of these skulls possess a particularly abruptly curved nasal horn. Remember, centrosaurus horns were quite variable in shape and size, so such a curved horn is not as common as straighter ones, but is still probable in a good number of individuals. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Nov 29, 2013 8:54:22 GMT 5
Alright I guess, but the default condition is an almost straight horn, just like rhinos.
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Post by theropod on Nov 30, 2013 20:35:21 GMT 5
What species of Centrosaurus is that skull?
That medial frontal horn seems pretty odd and the nasal horn's curvature is more extreme than in any specimen I have seen before. I agree with such an extreme specimen (tough even it is not as extreme as Einiosaurus) the downward motion would make sense.
However the typical condition for Centrosaurus seems to be an almost straight horn.
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