Ussuri Brown Bear vs Siberian Tiger

[creature386]

Jan 1, 2020 19:49:17 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

creature386

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean mountainlord won't be back until the 1st of February?

It means precisely that.

[elosha11]

For the record, I think many of the accounts and evidence mountainlord posted have probative value. But we simply cannot tolerate repeated outbursts and name calling. Hopefully, when he returns, he can keep his passions in check while he makes his arguments. For instance, no one should ever call someone on this forum a "liar" over mere disagreements or different interpretations of evidence/arguments.

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

It seems the Siberian tiger, the Ussuri brown bear, Ussuri black bear, and Ussuri wild boar do overlap territories at one point in time.

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Another interaction:

The black grizzly or Ussuri brown bear (Ursus arctos lasiotus) is another big bear occasionally attaining a size greater than the Kamchatka brown bear. These bears are found in the Amur and Ussuri River regions of the Russian Far East, northeastern China, the Korean Peninsula and Japan.

In the Amur region these bears cross paths with Siberian (Aumr) tigers on rare occasions, primarily because there are so few Siberian tigers left in the world. Tiger attacks on bears have been reported when the bears were in hibernaculum as well while ambulatory. Supposedly, the brown bears are attacked with more frequency than the smaller Asiatic black bears because of habitat preference and an inability to climb trees. But these bears also attack the typically smaller tigers on occasion. The bears are more commonly known to track tigers, following the big cats’ foot prints to ungulate kills, where they ultimately force the cat off the carcass, taking possession of it.

blog.nationalgeographic.org/2012/04/30/the-biggest-of-the-big-the-brown-bears-of-alaska-and-russias-far-east/

The sentence: But these bears also attack the typically smaller tigers on occasion is because the average male Ussuri brown bears at 582 pounds on average outweigh even large male Siberian tigers at 500 pounds.

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Dec 31, 2019 0:42:35 GMT 5 brobear said:

Amur tiger compared with Ussuri brown bear:

One thing I noticed finally, the average weight of the Ussuri brown bear seems to have been down sized in 2011 to 2013, however, in the 1970s both male and female are included. Could the average weight of both genders have been mixed together?

[smedz]

GreenArrow

Honestly, I don't think those who were part of the studies measured any female brown bears if that's what you're getting at.

Also, THANK YOU for noticing the decrease in the brown bears average weight in modern times!

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Perhaps the down sizing might be due to human intervention or poaching. I also notice there are only three male specimens measured between 2011 to 2013 (no females were measured, I stand corrected on that part). Maybe we should ask GuateGojira (a reliable poster who made this chart) for more details?

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Take a look at this:

Poaching is a serious problem even in 2007 to the ecosystem in Far East Russia:

Poaching in Far Eastern Russia Threatens Ecosystem.

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11439051

[smedz]

Jan 4, 2020 5:00:30 GMT 5 DonaldCengXiongAzuma said:

Perhaps the down sizing might be due to human intervention or poaching. I also notice there are only three male specimens measured between 2011 to 2013 (no females were measured, I stand corrected on that part). Maybe we should ask GuateGojira (a reliable poster who made this chart) for more details?

You can do that, I don't plan on going back there.

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Jan 1, 2020 1:23:52 GMT 5 smedz said:

Jan 1, 2020 0:34:44 GMT 5 brobear said:

Smedz...( quote ): You keep saying a tiger is only willing to attack a sloth bear when its back turned, think of Broken Tail's encounter with a bear. He stalked the bear even though it was facing sideways from him. The point of posting that video was to show a tigress going head to head with a sloth bear, more specifically one with cubs. When the bear stopped she stopped in case she would have to deliver some blows. When the bear ran she ran because she wanted to make sure the bear got far enough away from her cubs. She was not looking to kill the bear.

Who is broken Tail? ...on the video. He never went face-to-face with the bear. Yes, he stalked the bear when he was sideways to the tiger - your point?
As for the tiger charging and attacking the men on the elephant... who knows what was on the tigers mind? The elephant was sideways to the tiger - unthreatening. As for the people in the box - not likely the tiger even knew what they were. Cougars used to attack people on horseback that would never ambush a man on foot. But, cougars were notorious horse killers; so it was concluded that to the cougar, a rider is just part of the horse.

Broken tail is the tiger with a messed up tail in the video you speak of. My point was that a tigers don't always attack bears from behind. No cougar is going to charge at people riding an elephant unlike that tiger. Here's another thing on the tigers courage.   



        

A cougar or leopard will do what this tiger did as they simply aren't able to. 

[brobear]

Posts: 781 - One thing I noticed finally, the average weight of the Ussuri brown bear seems to have been down sized in 2011 to 2013, however, in the 1970s both male and female are included. Could the average weight of both genders have been mixed together?

*Multiple problems here: First, only three bears were weighed for this average. How old were they? When a study is done with bears, weights and measurements is simply a small part of the study. Afterwards, bears who are sexually mature are listed as "adult" and those weights put into the averages. A male grizzly is sexually mature between 4.5 and 5 years old. Its like taking the average weight of ( lets say ) American men, and into this average are 11 and 12 year old boys. A grizzly is not full grown until age 9 or 10.

[dinosauria101]

Maybe I could ask GuateGojira about the chart's reliability on WIldFact

[guategojira]

Hello to all, a poster in Wildfact asked me about this image of the comparison between Amur tiger and Ussuri brown bear, so I will like to make a few clarifications about it:

1 - The image is pretty old, in fact should not exist anymore as after that I made other image with clarification about an error on it, so the image is outdated.

2 - About the age of the bears in the sample, the same can be said about the tigers, they used tigers over 3 years old, which are sexually mature but not fully grow, so no fully adult. Still this is what scientists normally do, they put sexually mature animals like "adults" and that is all, there is nothing we can do.

3 - On the weights, those from 2011-2013 are only males but are incorrect, the sample of male Ussuri bears between 2011-2013 was actually only two (180 and 235 kg), while the other male (165 kg) was from the west of Russia. Those three bears came from a document of Dr Seryodkin and team in 2014. But that is not all the data available, I have more data now! According with studies made by the Siberian Tiger Project in the Sikhote-Alin reserve, the average weight of modern Ussusi bears is higher in males now but lower in females, Dr Goodrich and his team in 2012 presented an average weight of 270 kg for males and 145 kg for females, but they did not say the sample size. Digging more, the Russian journalist Evgeny Suvorov presented an article in 2003 and he says that the heaviest male Ussuri bear captured weighed "over 350 kg" and the heavies female 222 kg. Sadly he don't present a sample size too, so we have the average, the maximum weights, but not the sample size.

Hope this helps to clarify the issues with the image.

The body measuremnts of both species are correct in the image and both were taken, apparently, over the curves of the body. Now, about the weights, you can use this comparison:

Amur tiger:             1900 - 1970                          1992 - 2012
Male            216.5 kg (164 - 254) - n=10     190 kg (155 - 212) - n=23
Female        137.5 kg (99.5 - 167) - n=5      121 kg (110 - 136) - n=15

Ussuri brown bear:                 c. 1970                           1992 - 2011
Male                       264 kg (260 - 321) - n=10      270 kg (Max 350 kg+) - n=? (this sample do not includes the two males of 180kg and 235kg from Seryodkin et al., 2014)
Female                    189 kg (120 - 280) - n=12      145 kg (Max 222 kg) - n=?

Greetings to all.

[dinosauria101]

^Thank you very much for enlightening us on the up to date weights for these animals, guate. Very useful for the debate.

So, the bear still does have a mass advantage, but not as much as the chart would suggest (just under 20 percent)

[brobear]

guategojira; thank you for setting this straight.