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Post by Runic on Mar 11, 2014 6:38:23 GMT 5
Currently I'm unable to get to a computer for a reply right now (even my tablet is bugging out) so my rebut will be somewhere tomorrow around noon.
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Post by Runic on Mar 11, 2014 6:39:27 GMT 5
Yeah, I don't know how far cat-bird of prey interactions are going to take the arguments presented here. It won't be long. BoP kill cats more than vice versa. |
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Post by Runic on Mar 25, 2014 5:46:19 GMT 5
Forgot I even put this in the GE profile.
Golden Eagle Kills a Cat.-On July 18, of this year, while I was in San Felipe Valley in San Diego County, California, about fifteen miles southeast of Warner Hot Springs, I discovered the dead body of a full-grown domestic cat which had evi- dently been killed by an eagle. The cat was lying under an oak tree, and had been rather recently killed. Around it were signs of a life-and-death struggle-patches of fur and bunches of feathers. Among the last was a primary, the quill of which had apparently been split down. The cats ’ mouth was full of feathers. Also her viscera were torn out, and some substantial steaks removed from her hind quarters. I sent the leg feathers and the primary to Dr. Joseph Grinnell, at the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology, Berkeley, who identified the latter as a primary off the left wing of an adult female Golden Eagle (Aquila chrusai?tos).-F. B. SUMN~, Scripps ’ Institution of Oceanography, La Jolla, California, July 22, 1931.
Any reverse of house cats killing eagle? I think not!
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Post by malikc6 on Mar 27, 2014 5:58:53 GMT 5
This is a very close fight but I slightly favor the cougar. I feel that the cougar at some point in the fight could knock the dinosaur down and finish it. Four legged animals tend to have greater balance and control than bipedal animals. I mean it's easier for a four legged animal to recover than a bipedal animal that takes more time to recover. However the dinosaur has a strong bite and I think just one would be highly detrimental to the cougar. I would assume that the cougar is more agile as well but in any case, this is very close.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Mar 27, 2014 6:22:50 GMT 5
i doubt any animal, four legged or not, at similar size would not recover too well from a claw nearing 10 inches impailing it or a bite wide enough to engulf their entire head. balance is a small but not a substantial advantage against somthing with supirier weaponry. i really don't see how a cougar at similar weight is going to win the majority against something like a drom. i agree it's a close fight, but i see much more capability in the droms arsenal then vise versa
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fish
Junior Member Rank 1
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Post by fish on Mar 27, 2014 7:46:31 GMT 5
i still see use for it from keeping the cougar at bay as you stated. and it's still plenty obvious the deinonychus had far better chance to bite its foe then vice versa. i posted an image below. all credit goes to spinodontosaurus dienonychus could literally engulf and lacerate the head of the cougar.  Cougar skulls can reach 8-9 inches long while deinonychus skull is 16 inches, not to mention that the skull of deinonychus is quite gracile. This scale looks rather extreme, like deino is 4x bigger. Though I dont really think skull size is a huge factor anyways, both animals have deadly bites. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Mar 27, 2014 10:08:23 GMT 5
i still see use for it from keeping the cougar at bay as you stated. and it's still plenty obvious the deinonychus had far better chance to bite its foe then vice versa. i posted an image below. all credit goes to spinodontosaurus dienonychus could literally engulf and lacerate the head of the cougar. Not to sound rude, but that scale in terrible. The cougar's skull is far too undersized. As stated previously by fish, cougars can have 9 inch long skulls, deinonychus had a 16 inch skull. In your scale chart, the deino appears to have a skull triple to quadruple the size of the cougar's skull. This comparison is much better;  In this scale, the deino's skull is 401 pixels wide, and the cougar's skull is little under 230 pixels wide (approximately). This scale does a much more effective job of displaying and comparing the skulls and jaws of these two animals. The deino has a bigger jaw gape, but the cougar's skull is significantly sturdier and its canines are larger. |
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Post by Runic on Mar 27, 2014 15:57:10 GMT 5
i still see use for it from keeping the cougar at bay as you stated. and it's still plenty obvious the deinonychus had far better chance to bite its foe then vice versa. i posted an image below. all credit goes to spinodontosaurus dienonychus could literally engulf and lacerate the head of the cougar. Cougar skulls can reach 8-9 inches long while deinonychus skull is 16 inches, not to mention that the skull of deinonychus is quite gracile. This scale looks rather extreme, like deino is 4x bigger. Though I dont really think skull size is a huge factor anyways, both animals have deadly bites. Addressing all 3 of you in one post. fishDeinonychus does not have a gracile skull. Instead it's quite boxy and large. Sure their bite might not have been the best but if there's tooth marks from them embedded in bone that still shows they could be quite forceful on occasion however rare. @malik Bipedal animals today didn't have a theropods muscular tail and slung over body. Seriously doubt a cougar is gonna topple one over. @vod Deinonychus was a dromaeosaur. They don't have canines. Pretty sure no theropod does because they didn't need them. And do you know the point of those large holes in its skull? They're called fenestrae, and they help reduce the weight so the animal can move their heads. Now compare the skull of a animal that needs a reduced weighted skull to move it to a cougar with no fenestrae and that says something about sturdiness and density. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 27, 2014 15:58:10 GMT 5
I suggest actually measuring the animals' skulls in the image before saying one's "3-4x bigger".
Measure the mammal's skull length with your index finger and thumb (make it look like you're pinching it). Then take that distance with your index finger and thumb and put it above the skull of the dinosaur (mind you, if you can zoom in on the screen, it works better). Do the exact same thing with Vodmeister's scale (and btw, not to be picky, but the Deinonychus skull in his is not completely in lateral view). Doesn't look so inaccurate now does it?
This really shouldn't be surprising that the dromaeosaurid has a larger head than the felid, as the latter family doesn't exactly have what you would call a proportionately large head, while the former family, at the very least, has a much bigger head in relative terms than the other (and doesn't seem too bad in absolute terms either btw).
A 'gracile' skull (which is just your opinion btw) is no constraint when it dwarfs your opponent's. It will make up for its presumably weaker bite et al. And you know what? That bigger skull looks like the better advantage to me.
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Post by Vodmeister on Mar 31, 2014 21:49:29 GMT 5
I used to be quite confident that felines beat any other animal of equal size, but the more I learn about droms the more they begin to scare/impress me. Still the felines quadruple stance as opposed to a bipedal stance will be an advantage.
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fish
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Post by fish on Apr 1, 2014 7:55:25 GMT 5
Cougar skulls can reach 8-9 inches long while deinonychus skull is 16 inches, not to mention that the skull of deinonychus is quite gracile. This scale looks rather extreme, like deino is 4x bigger. Though I dont really think skull size is a huge factor anyways, both animals have deadly bites. Addressing all 3 of you in one post. fishDeinonychus does not have a gracile skull. Instead it's quite boxy and large. Sure their bite might not have been the best but if there's tooth marks from them embedded in bone that still shows they could be quite forceful on occasion however rare. The skull doesnt seem very boxy to me, at least not the jaw. I certainly dont think it would be able to engulf the cougars skull, though with a wide enough gape, I assume it could latch onto the head. Not sure on deinonychus bite force, because while a study said they had a bite force of an alligator, didnt another say they were more slicers like komodo dragons? An animal with a such a skull would look more suited for slicing and bleeding out prey than crushing it. I suggest actually measuring the animals' skulls in the image before saying one's "3-4x bigger". Measure the mammal's skull length with your index finger and thumb (make it look like you're pinching it). Then take that distance with your index finger and thumb and put it above the skull of the dinosaur (mind you, if you can zoom in on the screen, it works better). Do the exact same thing with Vodmeister's scale (and btw, not to be picky, but the Deinonychus skull in his is not completely in lateral view). Doesn't look so inaccurate now does it? This really shouldn't be surprising that the dromaeosaurid has a larger head than the felid, as the latter family doesn't exactly have what you would call a proportionately large head, while the former family, at the very least, has a much bigger head in relative terms than the other (and doesn't seem too bad in absolute terms either btw). A 'gracile' skull (which is just your opinion btw) is no constraint when it dwarfs your opponent's. It will make up for its presumably weaker bite et al. And you know what? That bigger skull looks like the better advantage to me. I tried that method and I was getting nearly 3 cougar skulls lol. But I actually put a ruler on the screen and when I measured the lower jaws to my surprise yes it is about twice as long. The position of deinonychus skull, the fact that its opened so wide, while the cougar skull is almost closed, makes it look even bigger than it is and makes a quick measurement hard. But another question would the deinonychus skull be so high? The lower jawbone looks very high compared to the entire cougar skull, and in many skull replicas like the above picture I posted, the lower jaw is rather low. But maybe its just my view because of the way deinonychus mouth is opened. As for bigger skull being an advantage, the cougar likely has a different kill method than the drom, one where it kills with a quick bite to a vital area. Deinonychus may have used a slicing bite to bleed out prey. A larger skull would very likely be an advantage. if the cougar also engaged in such a killing method. In my opinion both have deadly weapons, in different respects. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 1, 2014 15:55:36 GMT 5
I don't see the cougar being able to deliver its quick bite (skull bite) when it's in a grappling contest with the drom while the dinosaur simply closes its mouth around the cat's.
I think the skull's more boxy when you look at the back of it.
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Post by spinodontosaurus on Apr 2, 2014 14:48:37 GMT 5
As suggested by someone else previously, I suggest you measure the scale before proclaiming it to be terrible.
When I was putting it together some time back, it was just meant to be quick and I didn't have any reliable measurements of Cougars to hand, so I just used this one:
It's 21.6 cm long, or 8.5 inches, and in the small chart I posted it is 86 pixels long.
The Deinonychus skull is 38 cm long, or 15 inches, and is 151 pixels long in the chart. That's 1.75~1.76 times longer than the Cougar.
EDIT: I will update the image with a scale bar and credit (which I forgot in my rush to finish it the first time). The updated version should show on this forum when it's uploaded to the hosting site.
EDIT2: Ok for some reason the updated image refuses to display here, instead the old one has remained. Again. For future reference each pixel is 4 cm in the image. Oh and that Cougar specimen was reportedly 66 kg.
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Post by theropod on Apr 2, 2014 16:54:59 GMT 5
Deinonychus skull isn’t really that robust. Of course it is proportionally somewhat deeper and wider than Velociraptor’s (in fact, I’d be surprised if it was not considering the size difference). It is still a lightweight structure with relatively gracile bones, just like most theropod skulls.
Puncturing or slicing bone is not a rarity among animals that lack particularly powerful bites.
That the animal was able to generate bite forces allowing it to "bite through bone" appears an unlikely explanation (and remember, the same methodology also produced a ridiculous overestimate in T. rex), especially considering its mandible was not nearly that strong.
Maybe this was the result of a rapid impact generated due to movements of the prey and/or the predator. In any case, neither Deinonychus’ body weight nor its bite force would have sufficed to generate the over 400kg of force that was found in the study.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 12, 2014 7:17:30 GMT 5
I wouldn't say the cougar has out-of-the-ordinarily deadly jaws either. Although the cougar has long canines designed to puncture with a fairly high bite force, IIRC, the canines are the only teeth they use in predation and combat, plus their heads/jaws are small and are usually reliant on precision. It comes to my understanding that the cat is more force-oriented with its bite whereas the Deinonychus is more sharpness oriented with its. So we've got a big head that isn't well adapted for powerful biting but for ripping, tearing, and biting off pieces of flesh and uses all of its teeth against a small head that's more adapted for powerful biting (if anything) that usually relies on precision and only uses four of its teeth.
Now, theropods seem to aim for the face a lot in intraspecific conflict, and if the Deinonychus does the same here, it's not going to go well for the cougar who would be going up against an opponent who can fit its head in its maw.
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