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Post by theropod on Dec 19, 2014 3:11:32 GMT 5
There is never a neutral ground for animals that are separated by over 100 ma, a number of assumptions are necessary (for example that they don’t have difficulties due to differences in oxygen concentration, that they don’t die quickly of some infection or are susceptible to some pollutant…).
But I don’t see what the problem with a moderately cool mainland environment would be. A carnosaur would hardly get hypothermia that quickly considering its coat of feathers, size and hiigh metabolism, and a polar bear would hardly overheat that quickly considering they are known to spend time on dry land on occasion.
However I think 500kg for Shaochilong is a fairly optimistic figure imo. As I’ve noted elsewhere, the skull appears to have been about 55cm long based on toothrow lenght of 255mm, the same toothrow lenght implies it was 71% the size of DINO 2560. That would make it 6.1m long based on Allosaurus (toothrow measurement) and 4.9m long based on Concavenator (skull lenght). While assuming Allosaurus’ proportions it may be well over 700kg in weight, the obviously more likely proportions of Concavenator imply something closer to 400kg.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Dec 19, 2014 3:26:09 GMT 5
In that case, I think an average polar bear (which I think weighs ~500kg on average or something like that) would win, I don't believe the carnosaur (which is at ~420kg) would get past a ~19% size advantage (pretty close to a mass advantage of 20%).
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Dec 28, 2014 22:53:39 GMT 5
the bear's too big
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Dec 29, 2014 8:13:09 GMT 5
Theropod, filamentous structures completely covering all dinosaur taxa is a mere idea brought about by you (if there is anybody else who proposed it, I apologize). There is no proof that all dinosaur taxa were covered in filaments completely, even though they have been found in small ornithiscian genera (which merely indicates their presence, not their abundance; two separate things). But that is beside the point: geologic location is only relevant down to whether or not it is aquatic or terrestrial (other factors, such as a cold climate, do not matter).
Shaochilong, being an allosaur, would have required far less restriction in biting than any carnivoran (which is thus one advantage of many macrophagous theropods including allosaurs and tyrannosaurids over predatory mammals), and could have induced crippling tearing wounds with its large jaws and knife-like teeth. Contrast the polar bear which, as with all carnivorans, possessed pointed conical canines ideal for puncturing specific regions. That said, it would have still lacked in limb-usage, which is a benefit for the bear.
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Post by theropod on Dec 29, 2014 15:16:22 GMT 5
Theropod, filamentous structures completely covering all dinosaur taxa is a mere idea brought about by you (if there is anybody else who proposed it, I apologize). There is no proof that all dinosaur taxa were covered in filaments completely, even though they have been found in small ornithiscian genera (which merely indicates their presence, not their abundance; two separate things). But that is beside the point: geologic location is only relevant down to whether or not it is aquatic or terrestrial (other factors, such as a cold climate, do not matter). Shaochilong, being an allosaur, would have required far less restriction in biting than any carnivoran (which is thus one advantage of many macrophagous theropods including allosaurs and tyrannosaurids over predatory mammals), and could have induced crippling tearing wounds with its large jaws and knife-like teeth. Contrast the polar bear which, as with all carnivorans, possessed pointed conical canines ideal for puncturing specific regions. That said, it would have still lacked in limb-usage, which is a benefit for the bear. That's not just my theory. Thomas Holtz proposed fuzz as a shared trait of Dinosauria: www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G104/lectures/104dinorise.htmlWhich was also a scenario considered in the description of Tianyulong and in the description of Jeholopterus it is conceded that there is no evidence for or against the homology of pycnofibres and protofeathers, hence parsimony dictates they are homologous. |
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Post by malikc6 on Dec 29, 2014 16:00:58 GMT 5
I recently found out that Polar bears overheat quite easily. That is a huge disadvantage, but I would assume if the dinosaur fought the bear in its environment, then the bear wins. If in a hot/warm area, dino wins.
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Dec 31, 2014 2:33:43 GMT 5
Environment doesn't matter, at least when it comes to geologic location/climate.
All that matters is whether or not it takes place aquatically or terrestrially, and it would have to take place terrestrially in this case, as both predators were adapted for terrestrial hunting.
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Post by creature386 on Jan 2, 2015 16:08:43 GMT 5
It is possible to place this in a tundra like environment, that'd sound fair. But TBH, I actually see the dinosaur faring slightly better in a cold environment than the bear in a got one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 23:26:15 GMT 5
Bear has the slight edge but it can go either way.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 23, 2019 23:18:48 GMT 5
Going against the grain and favoring Shaochilong.
It will be able to kill the bear with 2 or 3 bites, and polar bears are less impressive than smaller Kodiak bears
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Dec 13, 2019 3:19:37 GMT 5
/\ Kodiak bears are actually around the same weight as polar bears on average. This said the shaochilong could win at parity but it could still be grappled to the group. The polar bear still has to watch out for these jaws regardless.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 13, 2019 3:22:29 GMT 5
Well, polar bears are 400-500 kg and Kodiaks are 312 AFAIK; so weights are close but the polar bear is a bit bigger.
So yes, Kodiak bear vs Shaochilong is a better match than this as the Kodiak is a more impressive. fighter all around.
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Post by 6f5e4d on Dec 13, 2019 12:42:59 GMT 5
Polar bear can win the fight, it's heavier than Shaochilong and probably can still make effective use of its claws.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 13, 2019 17:10:54 GMT 5
6f5e4dJust some food for thought: At this point, at least 5.3 meters is considered a viable size for Shaochilong - scaling down from relatives gets ~550 kg for 5.3 meters and ~500 kg for 4.9. And at 6 meters, you'd get ~850 kg scaling down from relatives. This is rather close to, if not heavier than, an average 400-500 kg polar bear. I'd even back the dinosaur at 420 kg - one bite to an arm and no more grappling, only ~30 kg mass difference which is only about 7%, and the bear needs to grapple with those jaws for quite a long and risky time period compared to what the dino has to do. Does this change your take on it?
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Post by 6f5e4d on Dec 13, 2019 21:46:54 GMT 5
Who knows, one animal may win some fights, other fights the other would win since they are still close in weight.
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