Sivatherium giganteum vs. Concavenator corcovatus

[dinosauria101]

Sivatherium giganteum
Sivatherium ("Shiva's beast") is an extinct genus of giraffid that ranged throughout Africa to the Indian Subcontinent. The species Sivatherium giganteum is, by weight, the largest giraffid known, and also possibly the largest ruminant of all time. Sivatherium resembled the modern okapi, but was far larger, and more heavily built, being about 2.2 m (7.2 ft) tall at the shoulder, 3 m (9.8 ft) in total height with a weight up to 400–500 kg (880–1,100 lb). A newer estimate has come up with an estimated body mass of about 1,250 kg (2,760 lb). This would make Sivatherium the largest ruminant in history. This weight estimate is thought to be an underestimate, as it does not take into account the large horns possessed by males of the species. Sivatherium had a wide, antler-like pair of ossicones on its head, and a second pair of ossicones above its eyes. Its shoulders were very powerful to support the neck muscles required to lift the heavy skull.


Concavenator corcovatus
Concavenator is a genus of theropod dinosaur that lived approximately 130 million years ago during the early Cretaceous period (Barremian stage). The type species is C. corcovatus; Concavenator corcovatus means "hump backed hunter from Cuenca". The fossil was discovered in the Las Hoyas fossil site of Spain by paleontologists José Luis Sanz, Francisco Ortega and Fernando Escaso from the Autonomous University of Madrid and the National University of Distance Learning. Concavenator was a medium-sized (roughly 6 meters (20 feet) long, and 500 kg (1,100 lbs) primitive carcharodontosaurian dinosaur possessing several unique features. Two extremely tall vertebrae in front of the hips formed a tall but narrow and pointed crest (possibly supporting a hump) on the dinosaur's back. The function of such crests is currently unknown. Paleontologist Roger Benson from Cambridge University speculated that one possibility is that "it is analogous to head-crests used in visual displays", but the Spanish scientists who discovered it noted it could also be a thermal regulator.

Credit to Wikipedia

[dinosauria101]

This has now been edited to something else!

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

The theropod will wim easily. It will treat the sivatherium as its prey. The girrafid's horns will not prevent it from becoming prey for the dinasaur.

[creature386]

At parity, this is a mismatch in favor of the theropod (though not a complete one). With the newer weight estimate for Sivatherium, odds are certainly on Concavenator, but it's not a mismatch. Sivatherium could win by trampling the theropod, though that's less likely to happen then getting bitten and bleeding to death.

[dinosauria101]

^Gaurus actually favored Sivatherium over Shaochilong (just about identical to Concavenator) on Carnivora: he said he thought the thick hide of Sivatherium, combined with its ossicones, size, and neck-whacking, would allow it to beat shaochilong more often than not. I'll link the thread when I get to an unblocked IP, could lead to some interesting discussion.

Anyhow, good to know this probably isn't a mismatch

[Infinity Blade]

Gaurus actually favored Sivatherium over Shaochilong (just about identical to Concavenator) on Carnivora: he said he thought the thick hide of Sivatherium, combined with its ossicones, size, and neck-whacking, would allow it to beat shaochilong more often than not.

While it's true that these theropods destroy this giraffid at parity, you kind of make it sound as if these arguments, when Sivatherium weighs 2.5 times more, are unreasonable.

[dinosauria101]

Maybe I should have included a disclaimer there. I do not think it's unreasonable nor am I poking fun at anyone, I'd just like to debunk that.
As me and Lightning have discussed on Carnivora, the Concavenator Shaochilong would have been agile enough to avoid the Sivatherium's attacks, and each bite would be devastating. 
Moreover, modern predators are often able to kill herbivores 3-6 times bigger than them, and most of the weaponry of today's predators pales in comparison to that of Concavenator. Also, based off of Carnivora's threads and their replies, I have a feeling that Sivatherium (or giraffids) may not have been as formidable as other herbivores for their size, so a less formidable herbivore vs a more formidable predator has me favoring the predator, especially considering the feats of modern predators.

By the way, who do you favor, Infinity Blade? You seem to be helping out what Gaurus said, yet I have a feeling that's not the case.

Edit: Here are Gaurus' 2 replies to the thread:

S. giganteum may have been two and half times heavier than the theropod (1,250 kg vs 500 kg), and if it was anything like modern giraffe, it would have had a flexible, powerful neck that could deliver heavy yet precise blows during a fight. S. giganteum wielded more prominent ossicones than the modern giraffe, and given their sharp tips as well, I reckon the giraffid would have been able to gore an opponent with its headgear.



If the theropod commits to an attack, I am not convinced that it could avoid retaliation from the giraffid. There is a massive size disparity between the animals here, and it's heavily in favour of the giraffid. S. giganteum has also got at least 2 inches of hide covering it, and greater bulk. Giraffids are appropriately armed, as explained by the following excerpt.





Quote:

We know of eight anecdotal accounts of male giraffes injuring or killing their opponents during combat. In a fight between semicaptive giraffe, one animal was thrown sideways several feet by blows from the other. Dagg and Foster reported a male knocked unconscious by a blow from an opponent; another male was killed when the other punched a hole in its opponent's neck just below the ear, splintering the top vertebrae, which penetrated the spinal column. Resnik photographed a male with a broken and twisted jaw following a blow from an opponent, and Coe recorded a death during "necking" of a captive male giraffe, mistakenly allowed into the enclosure of a similar-sized male.



In three fights recorded in our study between large (old) bulls in northwestern Namibia, head clubbing resulted in the opponent being knocked to the ground on each occasion. The force was sufficient to break an opponent's leg in one encounter, and, in the most violent encounter, a male clubbed his rival to the ground, and the rival was prevented from standing by the opponent stamping its foreleg until death occurred. This is the only known record of a giraffe using its hooves in intraspecific aggression.



Author: Winning by a Neck: Sexual Selection in the Evolution of Giraffe



I disagree with the current consensus.



I think the giraffid would be in a viable position to knock down the theropod with a good whack, and subsequently stomp it to death.


and

Something else to consider is that giraffids have particularly thick skin on certain parts of their frame, which is often thought to act as a defense mechanism. The areas of a giraffe likely to be injured during intraspecific fighting, as well as body parts where predators frequently choose to attack, are endowed with thick skin to resist puncture.





Quote:

Potential Dermal Armor



Although regional variations in the thickness of mammalian skin are a feature of many mammals, it has been posited that in certain larger mammals the thickness of the skin may act as a protective shield, with the location of increased thicknesses of the dermis related to regions likely to be injured during intraspecific combat. In this study of the giraffe, we found a large region of thick skin on the upper half of the trunk/rump and a substantially thickened deep dermal region on the anterior and lateral surfaces of the neck. Intraspecific combat in male giraffe is evidenced mostly as “necking” behavior. Given this method of intraspecific aggression, it is possible that the thicker skin of the neck may provide a protective function; however, this does not explain the thickness of the skin on the upper trunk/rump. As far as the authors are aware, there are no reports of giraffe, for example, biting one another on the trunk/rump during intraspecific combat.



Although it is well known that lion will kill giraffe, the authors cannot find the exact attack method described in the scientific literature; however, natural history documentaries often feature lions leaping onto the giraffe's back to pull it to the ground. Thus, the thickened skin in this region may provide protection against the claws and teeth of potential predators. Despite this, it is most likely that the thickness of the giraffe skin on both the anterior neck and rump is related to protection from the thorns of the acacia trees on which it feeds. These regions of increased skin thickness would allow the giraffe to move around in dense acacia vegetation and not suffer from cuts to the skin that would cause major openings and extensive bleeding. It is of interest to note here that these regions of thickened skin that may correspond to dermal armor are indeed far thicker than what would be predicted allometrically, thus supporting the possibility of specific increases in skin thickness as a potential defense mechanism.



Study: Variations in the Thickness and Composition of the Skin of the Giraffe





This thickness of hide, as well as much larger body size, brings doubt to the aforementioned notions that the theropod could fatally injure the ruminant before being shaken to the ground and trampled to death.


However, here is Lightning's post in the thread, and I find it to more or less debunk what Gaurus said:

The shaochilong is more agile and shorter than the sivatherium by a good amount. Hence, I think it will be really difficult for the sivatherium to neck-whack the shaochilong



I got this image of the shaochilong from prehistoric wildlife (it's not a very good source but it's better than nothing and I'm not sure where to look for scientific sources):


And this is an image of the old, 400kg to 500kg estimate of sivatherium:
*This animal looks about 1.25 tons, not 500 kg

Thus, the 400/500kg estimate of sivatherium is already taller than the shaochilong. The new 1250kg estimate would show a much taller giraffe. I find it hard to imagine it neck-whacking the shorter, more agile theropod.



It would be even more difficult for the sivatherium to gore the theropod with its horns and the sivatherium's horns look less impressive than bovine horns:


The sivatherium may have a thick hide but this theropod has far deadlier weaponry than the much smaller lions the sivatherium would have had to deal with. The shaochilong's skull would have likely been around 70cm, as long as a hippo skull, and, being a carcharodontosaurid, its jaws are filled with serrated teeth which slice through meat easily, would cause massive wounds and kill the prey through huge amounts of blood loss.



Sharks also have serrated teeth (and shaochiling means "shark toothed dragon" lol) and this is what a shark bite did to a seal:


A bite from a shaochilong would do similar damage.



I know the sivatherium's thick hide is much harder to penetrate than seal blubber but I still doubt it'd be able to stand up to the theropod's huge jaws.



I think the theropod can keep doing bite-and-run attacks until the giraffe collapses from its wounds. And I think the theropod would be too agile for the sivatherium to attack it.



A close modern analogy to this match up I think would be coyotes killing mule deer like this:


youtu.be/MocKEor1BM8
youtu.be/g9E0ialHlH0

It's not a perfect analogy since sivatherium is proportionally more durable than deer and the shaochilong has proportionally larger jaws and a far deadlier bite than a coytote but it's the closest I can think of.



I realise that this is a lone shaochilong vs sivatherium match whereas there are 2 and 3 coyotes in those videos I posted but a mule deer is 5X heavier than a coyote whilst a sivatherium is just 2.5X heavier than a shaochilong.

And here is the thread link: carnivora.net/showthread.php?tid=4154&pid=28634&highlight=aforementioned+notions#pid28634

[jhg]

Ossicones vs jaws, hmmm...
The Concavenator can win as long as it runs in circles while taking one bite at a time and avoids getting smacked. Finally a fight with Sivatherium.

[theropod]

dinosauria101: You need to consider the known individual of Shaochilong was likely quite a bit smaller than Concavenator, probably just ~5m and ~400kg based on the skull. So which taxon you are actually talking about matters, a lot.

[dinosauria101]

^I've seen that on the Shaochilong vs polar bear thread (and I still favor the Shaochilong simply because polar bears aren't very impressive at all), and I've heard it said on Wikipedia, as well as a few dinosaur books, that Shaochilong was relatively short-faced for a carnosaur. I think it could've been anywhere from 400 to 500 kg going by that.
(Do correct me if I'm wrong though)

[dinosauria101]

Apr 21, 2019 9:57:50 GMT 5 jhg said:

Ossicones vs jaws, hmmm...
The Concavenator can win as long as it runs in circles while taking one bite at a time and avoids getting smacked. Finally a fight with Sivatherium.

<iframe width="24.5" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.5px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_47204056" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.5" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.5px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1164px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_97028464" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.5" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.5px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_41536854" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.5" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.5px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1164px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_6180949" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Yeah, pretty good analogy jhg. I agree, if it runs around and sidesteps after landing each bite, the Concavenator can win the battle.

theropod I only brought up Shaochilong because it was used on the Carnivora thread. This is Concavenator we have here, very likely as big as the OP says. And even at a lower size than 6 meters, Shaochilong still looks pretty close to 500 kg (to me, at least, it seems a tad robust). Here's franoys' skeletal if you haven't seen it already:
www.deviantart.com/franoys/art/Shaochilong-maortuensis-skeletal-diagram-758083151

Of course, I may be incorrect there as well, so feel free to correct any errors I've made assuming size.

[theropod]

You do know only the white parts in that skeletal are actually preserved fossils of Shaochilong, right? All the rest is based on relatives (specifically Concavenator as for the torso depth, so it has very little bearing on its comparative robusticity, although the head does seem curiously small, even compared to Concavenator. But yeah, the skeletal seems reasonable enough, in any case it’s smaller than Concavenator, and WAY smaller than Sivatherium.

[dinosauria101]

^Yeah, I saw that in the description. If it helps, here's the link to a non-skeletal portrayal (that will not show up as an image):
www.google.com/search q=shaochilong+size&rlz=1CAHJUL_enCA845&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipsZO6pOHhAhURhuAKHcExCS4Q_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=641#imgrc=YqedendWzCZFrM:
Oddly enough, it looks as if it weighs about the same as the 1st image (Prehistoric Wildlife) I posted

[theropod]

it doesn’t show up as a link either. Not sure what you mean by "non-skeletal portrayal"
Just to make one thing clear, the quality of the reconstructions on prehistoric wildlife tends to be absolutely abhorrent. I strongly recommend not relying on that site, it very much prioritizes quantity over quality in terms of information.

[dinosauria101]

I actually did not know that they prioritize quality (though it does make sense, given the flashiness of their images).
Anyhow, although I'm certainly not discounting it being bigger or smaller, my main point was to illustrate that all the Shaochilong size comparisons I've ever seen look to be about 500 kg.

Edit: I do not know why the link isn't showing up either. Will fix it when I get to my computer