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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 31, 2019 10:03:49 GMT 5
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 31, 2019 10:08:01 GMT 5
Size chart (Dunkleosteus by blaze, Spinosaurus by Franoys)  |
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all
Junior Member
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Post by all on Sept 22, 2019 20:26:43 GMT 5
If they ever met it would have to be in the water. if you take the estimate of 20 metric tons for spinosaurus then of course it is going to win. But there seems to be many opinions about actual weight of spinosaurus. some as low as 4 metric tons. So personally I think there is simply not enough information to give a definite answer.
One of the estimates put Spinosaurus at about 12 metric tons. That makes sense if Tyrannosaurus was 9 tons. Which would still guarantee SA victory.
However one estimate was 6.5-7 metric tons. In this scenario Dunkleoseus actually has reasonably good chance of wining.
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Post by creature386 on Sept 22, 2019 20:31:21 GMT 5
The 20 t estimate is based on very flawed methodology.
Anyway, most know my views on Spinosaurus' aquaticism. I don't think there's any environment where both combatants can make full use of their morphology.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 22, 2019 21:28:03 GMT 5
If they ever met it would have to be in the water. if you take the estimate of 20 metric tons for spinosaurus then of course it is going to win. But there seems to be many opinions about actual weight of spinosaurus. some as low as 4 metric tons. So personally I think there is simply not enough information to give a definite answer. One of the estimates put Spinosaurus at about 12 metric tons. That makes sense if Tyrannosaurus was 9 tons. Which would still guarantee SA victory. However one estimate was 6.5-7 metric tons. In this scenario Dunkleoseus actually has reasonably good chance of wining.
Yes, that estimate is correct. Spino is about 6.5-7.5 tons. I'd favor it due to size advantage and fish hunting experience, but Dunkleosteus has a good chance too due to its bite and armor and I think Spino would end up having lost an arm some times. creature386Well, you thought killer whale vs Spinosaurus was worthy enough in terms of terrain, so why not this? Have you changed your viewpoint? |
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Post by creature386 on Sept 22, 2019 21:34:26 GMT 5
I said just the opposite:
"Same.
I have a problem with the consistent treatment of Spinosaurus as an animal interchangeable with a similarly-sized crocodile, too."
By that, I wasn't referring to the jaws, but to the degree of aquaticism. In my view, Spinosaurus was a primarily terrestrial animal.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 22, 2019 21:39:44 GMT 5
Oh, THAT's what you meant by not exchangable.
By primary terrestrial, you mean like a hippo?
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Post by creature386 on Sept 22, 2019 21:41:33 GMT 5
Kinda. I view it as an animal that preferred water in which it could stand.
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all
Junior Member
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Post by all on Sept 23, 2019 18:50:14 GMT 5
I don't know much about spinosauus because I have not kept up with recent dinosaur discoveries. And there was so many recently so I don't know that much about the latest stuff. However it seems to me that spinosaurus was semi aquatic. Which suggests to me he was like a hippo or maybe a crocodile.
I don't know if it ever ventured to the sea. But one way or another if spinosaurus would be standing in the water catching fish. ( and doing that from time to time is in my opinion just as likely as him swimming and catching it)
Now there comes dunkleosteus. Two things in my opinion can happen.
One spinosaurus grabs dunkleosteus and tries to kill it. Dunkleostus has strong armor and I have no idea how strong is spinosaurus bite. For DT it would be difficult to fight back because of his shorter jaws. However SA would not be able to lift dunkleosteus out of the water so they would both end up in the water where DT has an advantage. however since SA has weight advantage in some cases almost double. And he has a grab on the DT already. He most likely wins
Second scenario. Dunkleosteus grabs spinosaurus probably by the upper leg or the torso if spinosaurus is in upright position. Or by upper torso if spinosaurus is bending over trying to catch fish. If spinosaurus is bending over. Than despite SA's mass DT probably will kill him. If DT can only get a leg of SA lot depends how high on the leg the grab is. the higher it is the more dangerous it is. Of course the harder it is to reach but we assume that DT already has hold of SA. Now it is also more difficult to hold on to upper part of the leg than lower. However holding on to higher part of the leg would mean ST wont be able to kick. And bite force of DT is actually huge. and holding on would not be difficult for him. At the same time SA grabs DT.
At this point lot depends on how powerful is SA's jaw. And how powerful is DT's armor. Badly hurt Spinosaurus bites through DT's armor and kills him. Or bites of lower body of DT and does enough damage there to mortally wound him as well. The second possibility is that despite being severally damaged himself bites off SA's leg. without legs support AS falls down and DT kills him.
In most likely case they would ether both back off before they both get killed.Or they would both well get killed or die from their wounds latter.
So overall the I still give an edge to spinosaurus because of his almost double weight. However pound per pound in my opinion Duncleosteus terrelli is actually probably much stronger. I believe his bite force is not 2000 lbs nor 8000 lbs on the blade-tip. But 11000 lbs and 80000 lbs on the blade tip. So all things considered. The Spinosaurus has slight edge because of his size of 7 metric tons. However its very close almost 50/50.
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Post by elosha11 on Sept 23, 2019 19:27:21 GMT 5
I don't think dunkleosteus' rather narrow gape is going to allow it to take a large enough bite to mortally damage such a gigantic opponent. So unless the fish could grab Spino, and drag it underwater until it drowned, it would have a hard time. Could inflict nasty, but not fatal bites, which might still allow it to win the fight. But Spino is quite a bit larger, so I'm going to give it 60/40 to the dino. Spino would also have a difficult time killing the fish, but since it's used to taking huge (although far less formidable fish prey), I'm going to think that experience may give it an advantage in addition to its size advantage.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 23, 2019 20:46:49 GMT 5
1: I don't think dunkleosteus' rather narrow gape is going to allow it to take a large enough bite to mortally damage such a gigantic opponent. So unless the fish could grab Spino, and drag it underwater until it drowned, it would have a hard time. 2: Could inflict nasty, but not fatal bites, which might still allow it to win the fight. But Spino is quite a bit larger, so I'm going to give it 60/40 to the dino. 3: Spino would also have a difficult time killing the fish, but 4: since it's used to taking huge (although far less formidable fish prey), I'm going to think that experience may give it an advantage in addition to its size advantage. 1: Well, you do have something of a point. However, Dunk could probably attack the forelimbs and sail, which although not vital, could eventually cause serious injury. The forelimbs especially, once they're bitten off Spino loses some of its best assets. 2: Agreed, Spinosaurus should win overall due to size advantage 3: Well, maybe not. Amazon river dolphins, which have very thin jaws and small, conical teeth ( see here, hyperlink) are able to seriously damage and kill similar sized/sizable animals (bearing in mind a fellow dolphin would have blubber which would in theory help protect it). Here are some accounts from the Baryonyx vs Daspletosaurus thread: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_river_dolphin''Later, it was shown that males were larger than females and are documented wielding an aggressive sexual behavior in the wild and in captivity. Males often have a significant degree of damage in the dorsal, caudal, and pectoral fins as well as the blowhole due to bites and abrasions, in addition to the numerous secondary teeth-raking scars. This suggests fierce competition for access to females, with a polygynous mating system, though polyandry and promiscuity cannot be excluded.'' editors.eol.org/eoearth/wiki/Amazon_River_dolphin''Botos do not appear to establish a social hierarchy through aggression in captivity, but violent acts are not uncommon and have even resulted in the death of some individuals. However, males are now known to be larger than females, and very aggressive sexual behavior in males has been observed. Some authors have observed hostility between pink botos in the wild, while others have noted extremely aggressive activity during copulation in captivity. Males also have a higher degree of damaged fins, flukes, and blowholes due to biting and abrasion, in addition to more abundant scarring due to tooth-raking. This evidence suggests that there may be intense competition for access to females.'' www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2009/06/dolphins/"The males beat the hell out of each other," says Martin. "They are brutal. They can snap each other's jaws, tails, flippers, lacerate blowholes. The large males are literally covered with scar tissue." So basically, these river dolphins with small, conical teeth and long, thin jaws are able so seriously injure and kill similar sized animals with some degree of protection. Spinosaurus would have had a more robust skull with somewhat larger and sharper teeth ( see here, hyperlink), and it's fighting an animal it outweighs by 2-3 tons with relatively less protection (on the unarmored parts), so I wouldn't be surprised if the spinosaurid would be able to fatally injure the placoderm in a relatively short time span. 4: Less formidable? I may be incorrect, but Spinosaurus hunted large and dangerous fish a lot of the time, such as sharks and sawfish. It's also theorized to sometimes have eaten crocodiles. But I agree, experience with formidable prey helps. Overall, I'd say Spino 6-6.5/10, but not a mismatch at all and when it does win, I wouldn't be surprised if it loses one or both arms, for instance allGood analogy for real life interactions! That sounds very realistic, like many similar ones today between animals like storks and alligators |
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all
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Post by all on Sept 24, 2019 0:06:06 GMT 5
6-4 spinosaurus sounds about right. Although it could also be 5-4.
Putting his jaw around the spinosaurus might be dificult for duncleosteus because it is short. I assume that is what you mean but I'm not sure. But from close range i don't see how wide opening of the jaws would be problematic. Dunkleosteus had different muscles for opening and closing the mouth. crocodil'e muscles for opening the mouth are for example very weak. That is not the case with DT. By looking at the skull of the dunkleosteus and the ankle of the spinosaurus I think dunkleosteus could wrap his jaws around it. If not it could definitely do huge damage to the muscles. DT could open its mouth in 1/5 of a second and close it just as quickly. Which means it could bulldog its way into the leg in a fast pace. cookie cuter shark can pull out pieces of its prey despite having jaws much smaller than it. in this case I think same would happen only on lot larger scale.
And yes I do believe that if DT would grab SA's ankle he would break it. With that much bite force and way teeth or rather bony plates are shaped ( which were both huge and robust and concentrated the energy on small point) it could be accomplished. plus if you cut muscles that supporting the ankle. even only Achilles tendon by itself SA will not be able to jump run or even walk.
If SA just caught a fish and DT would grab his upper body ( even possibly the neck) it could easily crush it and if he would miss at least break elbow joint or wrist. But you do have a point I did just find out as I was writing this post that DT could only open its jaws 45 degrees in comparison to tigers' close to 65. On the other hand DT plates were length of adults forearm. If it got them on SA's fibula he could easily break it. And it is even possible that with bite force of 80000 lbs and size mass and sharpness of the plates. He actually break the tibia. Or cut into it and for all practical purposes the fight would be over.
The most likely target that the dunkleosteus would choose among the ones he could get to would be an upper leg. taking chunks of the muscles of the upper leg from ether front side or back. With the back being the most dangerous place.
A kick to the side of the leg with the shin will slow down opponent quite a bit. Three kicks will make him not be able to walk for quite a while. (in length that the fight would take place) Here we are talking about biting through the muscles and pulling them out of the leg with great force and speed.
If the bite was to front leg the damage is great but SA would still most likely be able to fight back to some degree and usually win. However if the bite is to rear leg (supporting leg) and the fight is over. If spinosaurus is in a process of getting up after catching the fish. DT would be able to reach his more vulnerable parts. for example lower body bellow the rib cage. If dunkleosteus grabbed from the left side he would grab SA's spleen. If its from the right side its liver. Hit to the liver hurts more than hit to the groin. If the grab was little higher at at height of the ribs. Yes the ribs protect the SA but I think DT could break those defenses specially at the lower ribs. And damage the kidneys which is damage it would be difficult for SA to come back from.
I will admit with the fact that DT can't open his jaws that wide it does not look that good for him. That is why spinosaurus would usually win as you said. However Dunkleosteus in my opinion would generally do lots of damage before this would happen.
Lot would depend on who would strike first. If it would be spinosaurus he would obviously win. However if Dunkleosteus would catch him off guard come from the rear and attack form the rear then yes I do believe he has good chance of wining it.
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