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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 17, 2019 16:45:24 GMT 5
Paraceratherium bugtiense Paraceratherium, also commonly known as Indricotherium or Baluchitherium, is an extinct genus of gigantic hornless rhinoceros-like mammals of the family Hyracodontidae, endemic to Eurasia and Asia during the Eocene to Oligocene 37.2—23.030 Mya, existing for approximately 14.17 million years. It was first discovered in the Baluchistan province of Pakistan, hence the name, by Sir Clive Forster Cooper. Paraceratherium is the largest land mammal known, larger than the largest species of mammoths (Mammuthus sungari, which may have approached it in size and weight). It is also known as the "giraffe rhinoceros". Adult Paraceratherium are estimated to have been 4.2 metres (14 ft) tall at the shoulder, 7 metres (23 ft) in length from nose to rump, a raised head height of about 5 metres (16 ft), and a skull length of 1.5 metres (4.9 ft). Weight estimates vary greatly, but most realistic and reliable weight estimates are about 11 tons. This puts it in the weight range of some sauropod dinosaurs. It was a herbivore that stripped leaves from trees with its down-pointing, tusk-like upper teeth that occluded forward-pointing lower teeth. It had a long, low, hornless skull and vaulted frontal and nasal bones. Its front teeth were reduced to a single pair of incisors in either jaw, but they were conical and so large that they looked like small tusks. The upper incisors pointed straight downwards, while the lower ones jutted outwards. The upper lip was evidently extremely mobile. The neck was very long, the trunk robust, and the limbs long and thick, column-like.  Purussaurus brasiliensis Purussaurus is an extinct genus of giant caiman that lived in South America during the Miocene epoch, 8 million years ago. It is known from skull material found in the Brazilian, Colombian and Peruvian Amazonia, and northern Venezuela. The skull length of the largest known individual of the type species, P. brasiliensis is 1,453 millimetres (57.2 in). It has been estimated that P. brasiliensis reached about 10.3 metres (34 ft) in length, weighing about 6.2 tons. Bite force has been estimated to be around 69,000 N (around 7 metric tons-force).. Two other extinct crocodilians, Sarcosuchus and Deinosuchus, have similar proportions, but both are geologically much older, dating from the Early and Late Cretaceous, respectively, and another from the Miocene of India, Rhamphosuchus, is estimated to be slightly smaller, though assumed to have been proportioned like a gharial. During the summer of 2005, a Franco-Peruvian expedition (the Fitzcarrald expedition) found new fossils of Purussaurus in the Peruvian Amazon (600 km from Lima).  Credit to Wikipedia |
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Post by all on Sept 20, 2019 23:41:25 GMT 5
This is an interesting match up. once again i assume fight is near the water hole.
The problem for PB is that he would not know when and if crocodile is coming. The crocodile could appear out of nowhere and attempt to pull PB into the water where it would have an advantage.
If crocodile would miss then PB could kick crocodile to death. However if crocodile would miss he would simply return to the water and wait for another opportunity.
I think that PB has a good chance to survive that encounter because of his great size and strength. However as far as killing crocodile in the process. A crocodile close to PB's own weight with strong armor and powerful jaws which I'm estimating had bite force only little bit smaller then deinosuchus. Not likely.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 21, 2019 1:26:34 GMT 5
allYes, certainly a close match. But I would favor Purussaurus, its bite force is twice that of Tyrannosaurus rex, it's very durable, and there's a good chance it can cripple a leg and get its jaws around the neck
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Post by theropod on Sept 21, 2019 3:11:53 GMT 5
allYes, certainly a close match. But I would favor Purussaurus, its bite force is twice that of Tyrannosaurus rex, it's very durable, and there's a good chance it can cripple a leg and get its jaws around the neck Its bite force was not twice that of Tyrannosaurus rex. Didn’t I recently make some rather extensive posts on that subject? At a realistic mass estimate, 5 t, the largest Purussaurus specimen would bite only marginally harder (63 kN) than estimated for T. rex BHI 3033 (not the biggest T. rex, although its skull is almost among the biggest) based on MBD modelling (57 kN). For all intends and purposes, this is a totally insignificant difference, and even more meaningless if we consider that the MBD results are likely underestimates compared to in vivo data. If anything, T. rex probably bit as hard as, if not a bit harder than Purussaurus. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 21, 2019 3:25:20 GMT 5
all Yes, certainly a close match. But I would favor Purussaurus, its bite force is twice that of Tyrannosaurus rex, it's very durable, and there's a good chance it can cripple a leg and get its jaws around the neck Its bite force was not twice that of Tyrannosaurus rex. Didn’t I recently made some rather extensive posts on that subject? At a realistic mass estimate, 5 t, the largest Purussaurus specimen would bite only marginally harder (63 kN) than estimated for T. rex BHI 3033 (not the biggest T. rex, although its skull is almost among the biggest) based on MBD modelling (57 kN). For all intends and purposes, this is a totally insignificant difference, and even more meaningless if we consider that the MBD results are likely underestimates compared to in vivo data. If anything, T. rex probably bit as hard as, if not a bit harder than Purussaurus. Oh, yes you did. But I did not look for bite force. Still, I think I stand by my 2 points. Purussaurus would still have had a sufficiently strong bite to make things go as I said, I think |
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Post by all on Sept 24, 2019 1:50:07 GMT 5
From what I read Purussaurus brasiliensis has bite force about 22% more than Tyrannosaurus rex. That is not that important in this case because one way or another the bite force is huge and strong enough. The questions here are how well could crocodile wrap his jaw around PB. And the weight difference.
I didn't read stats on the jaw of the crocodile on this site because it was build before I joined and i didn't know about its existence.
I thought weight of this crocodile was over 8 metric tons. But now it seems to be 5-6 tons. That means PB has almost double weight. However some predators can bring down prey couple of times larger than themselves. And fight would take place in the water hole. Or if PB wanted to go across the river in the water. On the land PB would win but that is not where the fight would take place.
Most likely the place of the fight would be at the water hole. In real life Crocodile is unlikely to attack something that big at less it is in the water. However if the idea was to do most of the damage to the adversary and take the least of our own. It would be the crocodile who would inflict larger damage and suffer less than the PB.
Crocodiles sometime attack elephants when they are near the water hole. the hunt is unsuccessful however if crocodile grabs elephant by the trunk it can do quite a lot of damage. PB has no trunk to get a hold off. however when PB would take a drink it would lower its neck and crocodile could grab the neck. vulnerable area even if it is as
thick as PB's. this way crocodile could do damage. with its powerful jaws perhaps quite a bit. PB would start to trash crocodile around while at the same time crocodile would try to pull PB into the water. Crocodile would not be able to pull PB into the water but it would deliver damage. PB would end up hurt perhaps severely while crocodile would retreat to the water relatively unharmed. PB would survive but crocodile would not really be damaged while PB would be.
As I mentioned before crocodile would have element of surprise. If not the fight would never taken place. And PB would ether beck away or continue drinking with crocodile trying to find an easier meal. If he tried to grab PB the crocodile would do some but less damage than in the case I described earlier but stay in the water. or do minimal damage and seeing that trying to pull PB into the water bis not working back off and swim away. but it would stay in the area because he could get some other unfortunate animal as his prey.
PB would have no problem killing any land predator of his time. he could kill Smilodon populator or even a cave bear with one kick. But unique positioning of crocodile would mean that in a fight that might have actually happen he would do more or less damage to PB but unlikely kill him. while he himself would return to the water unharmed.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 24, 2019 2:05:21 GMT 5
The difference is not even that high. See theropod's post above (57 kN vs. 63 kN is a 10.5% difference).
Are these supposed to be separate or does the second statement follow the first? Purussaurus didn't coexist with S. populator or a cave bear, but you're right that it could definitely kill any contemporaneous terrestrial predator (although, I don't think it would be with a kick).
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Post by Grey on Sept 24, 2019 2:08:48 GMT 5
Was this Purussaurus specimen that large and that heavy biting at all since unoffocial revision by randomdinos suggests a mass at least 2 tonnes lighter...
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 24, 2019 2:40:07 GMT 5
Are these supposed to be separate or does the second statement follow the first? Purussaurus didn't coexist with S. populator or a cave bear, but you're right that it could definitely kill any contemporaneous terrestrial predator (although, I don't think it would be with a kick). I think they meant Paraceratherium, not Purussaurus, when they said that |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 24, 2019 2:52:36 GMT 5
My fault, I got confused by what he was addressing as 'PB' (those are the initials of both species).
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 24, 2019 2:54:56 GMT 5
So did I. all, I think Purussaurus can still pull this off on land. Crocodiles are very durable, it still has very powerful jaws, and as I said earlier, if Purussaurus cripples a leg and gets its jaws around the neck, then it's game over |
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Post by all on Sept 24, 2019 16:59:23 GMT 5
As far as as on land. You do have a point crocodiles are very durable. However with that much weight difference it would be a difficult task.
Modern crocodiles have quick bursts of speed on the land but only for short distances. I would need more information about this crocodile's agility on land.
Crocodiles' bite force is still huge. 69000 newtons which translates to 15511 lbs per square inch. I thought tyrannosaurus bite force was 12800 lbs per square inch.Which would make this crocodile's bite force slightly over 21% larger than that tyrannosaurus's. But lets say His bite force is only as strong as T-rex that is still powerful. However on the land against animal weighing 11 tons it would be challenging.
In real encounter if Paraceratherium would get close to crocodile on the land. crocodile would turn towards him with mouth open. while moving towards paraceratherium trying to scare paraceratherium off. Paraceratherium would back away and be on its way. At this particular instance nether would look at the other as food and each would wish to stay as far away from the other as possible.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 24, 2019 20:37:35 GMT 5
As far as as on land. You do have a point crocodiles are very durable. However with that much weight difference it would be a difficult task. Modern crocodiles have quick bursts of speed on the land but only for short distances. I would need more information about this crocodile's agility on land. No, really. VERY durable. I'll post some accounts when I find them, and pictures too. |
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