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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 12, 2019 17:25:19 GMT 5
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Post by 6f5e4d on Dec 12, 2019 18:33:09 GMT 5
The Daspletosaurus will win this fight, having a stronger combined weight, they can overwhelm the Columbian mammoth.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 12, 2019 21:33:30 GMT 5
Well, using the mean of the Daspletosaurus, they should be about the same - 9 vs 8.4 tonnes.
I favor the tyrannosaurids as well, due to their numbers and lethal bites. They can wear down the mammoth via several injuries and if they can damage the trunk, even better.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 0:00:57 GMT 5
Maybe I should have used a few less allosaurs? On another note, kekistani, I remember you voted for the mammoth against 3 Daspletosaurus; who are similar sized to the allosaurs here (8.4 vs 8 tonnes total) and have very deadly weapons as well. Just curious, why do you favor the 4 Allosaurus fragilis but not the 3 Daspletosaurus against the mammoth? |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 0:11:21 GMT 5
Maybe I should have used a few less allosaurs? On another note, kekistani , I remember you voted for the mammoth against 3 Daspletosaurus; who are similar sized to the allosaurs here (8.4 vs 8 tonnes total) and have very deadly weapons as well. Just curious, why do you favor the 4 Allosaurus fragilis but not the 3 Daspletosaurus against the mammoth? Allosaurs are used to hunting big quadrupedal prey and have the dentition and build to do it. Daspletosaurus hunted hadrosaurs and armored herbivores, not well suited for hunting really big game animals like Allosaurs were. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 0:17:22 GMT 5
Maybe I should have used a few less allosaurs? On another note, kekistani , I remember you voted for the mammoth against 3 Daspletosaurus; who are similar sized to the allosaurs here (8.4 vs 8 tonnes total) and have very deadly weapons as well. Just curious, why do you favor the 4 Allosaurus fragilis but not the 3 Daspletosaurus against the mammoth? Allosaurs are used to hunting big quadrupedal prey and have the dentition and build to do it. Daspletosaurus hunted hadrosaurs and armored herbivores, not well suited for hunting really big game animals like Allosaurs were. Well, that's not quite the case. Infinity Blade has made a very good post ( link) about why Tyrannosaurus rex, despite taking primarily on armored herbivores and ceratopsians, is still very much able to predate on large animals. Daspletosaurus and Tyrannosaurus rex are very similar, so everything he's said should ably to both Rex and Das. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 0:22:13 GMT 5
Allosaurs are used to hunting big quadrupedal prey and have the dentition and build to do it. Daspletosaurus hunted hadrosaurs and armored herbivores, not well suited for hunting really big game animals like Allosaurs were. Well, that's not quite the case. Infinity Blade has made a very good post ( link) about why Tyrannosaurus rex, despite taking primarily on armored herbivores and ceratopsians, is still very much able to predate on large animals. Daspletosaurus and Tyrannosaurus rex are very similar, so everything he's said should ably to both Rex and Das. That's certainly true about T.rex,but the size disparity between Daspletosaurus individually and the mammoth is just too much for something with that jaw design.
I've also heard (though not seen a source for) that T.rex and other theropods actually lost biting power if they gaped their maws all the way open. That may be another issue facing the daspletosaurs as they can't effectively crush anything on the mammoth (without risking themselves).
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 0:44:37 GMT 5
Well, that's not quite the case. Infinity Blade has made a very good post ( link) about why Tyrannosaurus rex, despite taking primarily on armored herbivores and ceratopsians, is still very much able to predate on large animals. Daspletosaurus and Tyrannosaurus rex are very similar, so everything he's said should ably to both Rex and Das. That's certainly true about T.rex,but the size disparity between Daspletosaurus individually and the mammoth is just too much for something with that jaw design.
I've also heard (though not seen a source for) that T.rex and other theropods actually lost biting power if they gaped their maws all the way open. That may be another issue facing the daspletosaurs as they can't effectively crush anything on the mammoth (without risking themselves).
You are correct that jaw power suffers as gape gets wider. However, there are certainly areas on the flanks and rear (such as, say, a rear leg) that are within optimal gape angle, and tyrannosaurids are also relatively cursorial, which would make it hard for the mammoth to catch them. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 0:50:03 GMT 5
That's certainly true about T.rex,but the size disparity between Daspletosaurus individually and the mammoth is just too much for something with that jaw design.
I've also heard (though not seen a source for) that T.rex and other theropods actually lost biting power if they gaped their maws all the way open. That may be another issue facing the daspletosaurs as they can't effectively crush anything on the mammoth (without risking themselves).
You are correct that jaw power suffers as gape gets wider. However, there are certainly areas on the flanks and rear (such as, say, a rear leg) that are within optimal gape angle, and tyrannosaurids are also relatively cursorial, which would make it hard for the mammoth to catch them. The mammoth doesn't need to catch them-it's on the defensive so it can stand its ground.
I don't think trying to bite the rear leg of a large, enraged herbivore that is prone to kicking and stomping is a good idea.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jan 17, 2020 0:54:26 GMT 5
Well, I'm pretty sure that's true for any predator; i.e. it would not be biting at its absolute possible hardest if it was at maximum gape. It seems to hold true for theropods, but it also seems to hold true for a great white shark. The mouth obviously needs to be opened up a bit to be at maximum bite force (it's not biting its hardest with the mouth completely closed), but up to a certain point, efficiency or mechanical advantage is lost. faculty.washington.edu/fishguy/Resources/Research_PDFs/2008-great-white-shark-jaw-bite.pdfSo yeah, predators probably do lose some biting power when at maximum gape. But obviously it's better to have that wide gape and sacrifice some muscle power/efficiency to be able to bite onto the larger prey item and cause a massive wound. After all, who would expect a great white to cause serious damage to even similar-sized (let alone larger) prey with a gape of only 35 o? |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 1:07:27 GMT 5
After all, who would expect a great white to cause serious damage to even similar-sized (let alone larger) prey with a gape of only 35 o? I actually would, reason ebing that even if the gape is only 35 degrees the shark is going to trounce prey around as it goes.
Then again, if it is attacking something huge then bleeding out the prey a la allosaur-style makes more sense than crushing it like they do with sea lions.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jan 17, 2020 1:15:59 GMT 5
I don't know, 35o doesn't sound like it's anywhere near enough to effectively wrap a mouth around the wide body of an animal similarly large to itself.
Regarding what I've said about tyrannosaurids (which you can apply to other conical, piercing-toothed predators): the thing is, an animal that is biting into a larger animal isn't going to try to "crush" it thinking this strategy will be as effective as if it were biting a far smaller animal. Surely it can see that it's biting into a larger animal and that the aforementioned strategy isn't going to work. So they're going to use a different strategy, which is to do their best at causing soft tissue damage and/or bleeding it out. But even if their teeth aren't the most optimally suited for slicing or inducing exsanguination they will try. And apparently, some of these predators do indeed succeed.
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 1:27:14 GMT 5
I don't know, 35 o doesn't sound like it's anywhere near enough to effectively wrap a mouth around the wide body of an animal similarly large to itself. Regarding what I've said about tyrannosaurids (which you can apply to other conical, piercing-toothed predators): the thing is, an animal that is biting into a larger animal isn't going to try to "crush" it thinking this strategy will be as effective as if it were biting a far smaller animal. Surely it can see that it's biting into a larger animal and that the aforementioned strategy isn't going to work. So they're going to use a different strategy, which is to do their best at causing soft tissue damage and/or bleeding it out. But even if their teeth aren't the most optimally suited for slicing or inducing exsanguination they will try. And apparently, some of these predators do indeed succeed. that is true, TBF. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 2:23:32 GMT 5
You are correct that jaw power suffers as gape gets wider. However, there are certainly areas on the flanks and rear (such as, say, a rear leg) that are within optimal gape angle, and tyrannosaurids are also relatively cursorial, which would make it hard for the mammoth to catch them. The mammoth doesn't need to catch them-it's on the defensive so it can stand its ground.
I don't think trying to bite the rear leg of a large, enraged herbivore that is prone to kicking and stomping is a good idea.
It can stand its ground, but it's likely the 3 Daspletosaurus are experienced in hit and run (with ceratopsians), and the mammoth would not be good at fast movements in close quarters. As for attacking the rear? I don't think elephantids can kick backwards. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 2:33:06 GMT 5
The mammoth doesn't need to catch them-it's on the defensive so it can stand its ground.
I don't think trying to bite the rear leg of a large, enraged herbivore that is prone to kicking and stomping is a good idea.
As for attacking the rear? I don't think elephantids can kick backwards. Daily Mai, I know, but there is a video showing it is possible |
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