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Post by theropod on Aug 22, 2019 17:03:26 GMT 5
I think big predatory dinosaur skulls do too(?), but I'm not sure Yes, probably.
Christiansen’s study also contains all data necessary for a bite force comparison: mass 73.3 kg, skull 230 mm, 879.5 N (canine), 1348.0 N (carnassial) These are dry skull estimates, so it would probably be most appropriate to compare them to sue’s estimate from McHenry (2009) rather than Stan’s from Bates & Falkingham. skull 1497 mm, 16 841 N (anterior), 26 091 N (posterior)
(8400/73.3)^(1/3)*230 = SL (isometric) = 1117 mm
(8400/73.3)^(2/3)*879.5 = canine BF (isometric) = 20 750 N (8400/73.3)^(2/3)*1348.0 = carnassial BF (isometric) = 31 803 N
So it’s probably a good guess to say T. rex would have a bite force very similar to a jaguar when corrected for body mass.
And just for fun, the allometric values:
(8400/10^-4.638)^(1/2.762) = SL (allometric) = 1259 mm (1259/230)^2*879.5 = canine BF (allometric) = 26 353 N (1259/230)^2*1348.0 = carnassial BF (allometric = 40 391 N
Note that I don’t know what exactly Christiansen’s skull length measurement is, if it’s basal or condylobasal, then the maximum skull length would be larger.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 22, 2019 17:25:38 GMT 5
This is probably a dumb question but I assume that the anterior bite force described for Tyrannosaurus corresponds to the anteriormost incisiform teeth, right? Not the caniniform teeth (which are found in the maxilla and roughly correspond in position to the canines of a mammal)?
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Post by theropod on Aug 22, 2019 17:37:30 GMT 5
It’s actually a very good question, because no. Three possible bite points were identified; each represents the largest upper jaw tooth in the front, middle, and rear parts of the tooth row respectively (which tooth each one is applied to varies between species). These are the bite points McHenry used, the one for the front was 131.5cm on front of the jaw joint. The anterior bite point isn’t the anteriormost tooth, indeed it looks like the anteriormost maxillary tooth (see Figure 7-12).
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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 22, 2019 18:03:43 GMT 5
theropodSince we were now discussing bite force, I felt it was better and fitting to move the last three posts into this thread. The interesting thing is that T. rex's posterior bite force is ~55% harder than its anterior bite. For the jaguar, it's ~53%. I was expecting the jaguar's short jaws would make it so that bite force at the canines wasn't that much lower than bite force at the carnassials.
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Post by creature386 on Aug 22, 2019 18:10:22 GMT 5
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Post by Verdugo on Aug 22, 2019 19:01:55 GMT 5
This is probably a dumb question but I assume that the anterior bite force described for Tyrannosaurus corresponds to the anteriormost incisiform teeth, right? Not the caniniform teeth (which are found in the maxilla and roughly correspond in position to the canines of a mammal)? The Mid position in McHenry directly corresponds to the Caniniform in T-rex ( i have made a post on this). I suppose that would make a more apple to apple comparison, canine to caniniform, no?. Anyway: T-rex Mid bite force (Table 7-7) = 19169 N
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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 22, 2019 19:04:15 GMT 5
This is probably a dumb question but I assume that the anterior bite force described for Tyrannosaurus corresponds to the anteriormost incisiform teeth, right? Not the caniniform teeth (which are found in the maxilla and roughly correspond in position to the canines of a mammal)? The Mid position in McHenry directly corresponds to the Caniniform in T-rex ( i have made a post on this). I suppose that would make a more apple to apple comparison, canine to caniniform, no?. Anyway: T-rex Mid bite force (Table 7-7) = 19169 N Yes, you are right. That's why I was wondering.
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Post by Verdugo on Aug 22, 2019 19:43:14 GMT 5
I always think the pterygoid muscle in T-rex might have been underestimated. In modern reptiles that independently evolved to bite really hard for whatever purposes, usually have bulging pterygoid muscles that extend far beyond what their skull morphology would indicate. For instance: Tegu And of course, Crocodilians I will probably look more into this some times down the road
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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 22, 2019 23:18:31 GMT 5
theropodActually, I just remembered (and I can’t believe I forgot this earlier) that Sakamoto et al. (2019) made their own dry skull estimates for two different T. rex specimens, particularly Stan and AMNH 5027. Their minimum “functional bite force” estimate for Stan is on par with McHenry’s posterior bite force figure for Sue, and their maximum force figures are significantly higher than McHenry’s estimate. I made a post about this on page 12, which in fact was the basis for the size comparison I made and the whole conversation that ensued.
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Post by theropod on Aug 23, 2019 0:56:36 GMT 5
Sorry, totally overlooked that. Well, that should of course be considered, then.
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Post by theropod on Aug 26, 2019 16:49:09 GMT 5
I have to amend my statements regarding Pliosaur teeth: Massare (1987) describes the ridges on Liopleurodon teeth as sharp and serrated, sufficiently to serve as cutting edges, even though the whole tooth is round in cross-section. She further suggests that this form became modified into the trihedral tooth shape of Pliosaurus during the Upper Jurassic, making two of these ridges more prominent. She also illustrates a tooth of P. brachydeirus, which is also serrated, so this also seems to be the case in this taxon. Massare, J.A. 1987. Tooth morphology and prey preference of Mesozoic marine reptiles. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 7 (2): 121–137. tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02724634.1987.10011647
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 6, 2019 4:45:57 GMT 5
An oft-repeated factoid about the slow loris is that it is the only venomous primate. The brachial gland on the ventral surface of the elbow supposedly secretes the venom and the loris licks this gland. The dental combs (needle-like teeth on the lower jaw) are thought to inject the venomous brachial gland exudate into victims. Or so it’s thought. According to the link below there is no clinical evidence demonstrating that the slow loris’ bite is venomous. primatology.net/2010/10/19/are-slow-lorises-really-venomous/
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 11, 2019 7:18:07 GMT 5
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Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 20, 2019 2:08:20 GMT 5
CORTICAL VS TRABECULAR BONE AND THE SPECIALIZED KILLING BITE OF SABER-TOOTHSFIGUEIRIDO, Borja, University of Málaga, Málaga, Spain; PÉREZ-RAMOS, Alejandro, University of Málaga, Málaga, Spain; VAN VALKENBURGH, Blaire, university of California Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA, United States of America "The repeated evolution of elongate and laterally compressed (saber-like) canine teeth in different lineages of carnivorous mammals is one of the most spectacular cases of convergent evolution towards a specialized killing behavior. Although scimitar-toothed and dirk-toothed sabertooths have been traditionally identified as different ecomorphs, it is not clear whether these morphs deployed different killing bites. Here we use histologically-based algorithms to quantify the volume of cortical and trabecular bone in coronal sections of complete skulls to create biomechanical profiles of the ‘scimitar toothed’ Homotherium serum and in the ‘dirk-toothed’ Smilodon fatalis, as well as in a comparative sample of living carnivores, including the ‘conical-toothed’ Panthera leo. Whereas trabecular bone is well suited to deal with continuous and repetitive loads, cortical bone is better able to dissipate larger, more localized stresses. Our data indicate that Smilodon has much thicker cortical bone in its rostrum than other taxa. In the posterior region of the skull, cortical bone thickness is similar in Homotherium and Smilodon, but greater than in P. leo. In the same region, the trabecular bone in Homotherium is thicker than in Smilodon but thinner than in P. leo. Our results suggest that the two ecomorphs of saber-tooths differ in the distribution and quantity of cortical and trabecular bone across their skulls, reflecting different behaviors during prey dispatch. The thickened rostrum of Smilodon suggests that it deployed one or two very strong killing bites with its canines, whereas Homotherium might have used multiple, less forceful slashing bites. This suggests that the saber-tooth killing repertoire was more complex than previously suspected." Grant Information: Spanish MINNECO (Grants CGL2012-37866; CGL2015-68300P). Technical Session XIX (Saturday, August 26, 2017, 3:45 PM) vertpaleo.org/Annual-Meeting/Annual-Meeting-Home/SVP-2017-program-book-7-20-17a-(1).aspx The full paper is out now. sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.cub.2018.08.012
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Post by Verdugo on Sept 20, 2019 8:39:17 GMT 5
Does anyone knows any T-rex BF studies that are done in 3D FEA? I know there are 3D BF studies of T-rex in Bates et al and Erickson et al but i don't think neither studies actually employed 3D FEA.
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