Theropod kicks.

[Infinity Blade]

May 9, 2016 13:42:48 GMT 5 creature386 said:

If they were cursorial, I'd say they rather relied on few long steps than many small ones, with the former being less advantageous for a kicker than the latter.

Wait, what exactly do steps have to do with this?

[creature386]

My conjecture was simply that running styles that rely on many small steps need really fast leg movement and leg acceleration which would be beneficial for kicking.

[Infinity Blade]

But if they're taking shorter steps, wouldn't that also imply a lesser range of motion in a kick?

[creature386]

I admit, that's a valid point. Looking at how large theropods probably were no fast dodgers anyway, a long range is probably more advantageous than a fast kick.

[Infinity Blade]

May 9, 2016 15:14:03 GMT 5 Deathadder said:

How strong would a theropod kick even be?

I'd expect it to be powerful. I mean, cassowaries are able to fracture decently-sized human long bones (namely the shin bone) and I'd expect other similarly-sized ratites to be able to do the same. Ostriches can fracture human skulls; again, I'd expect other similarly-sized ratites to be capable of the same. There's even an, albeit old, account of an ostrich kicking through a sheet of corrugated iron (I'd be cautious of this one given the age).

On 2 November 1996, James Barry saw two dogs attacking a cassowary on the residential lot adjacent to his, one biting the bird's neck and the other its leg. As he pulled one dog away, the cassowary kicked Mr Barry in the shin, causing a simple fracture of his lower leg.

Memoirs of the Queensland Museum (link)

...and I possessed a cock which kicked a hole through a sheet of corrugated iron, behind which a man had taken refuge.

link

Provoked and unprovoked attacks on humans by captive Ostriches have been recorded, which have resulted in minor injuries such as scrapes and bruises (King 2007), or more serious injuries such as a fractured skull (del Hoyo et al 1992, Khan and Olumide 2006) and loss of vision from kicks or pecks to the eye (Chaudhry et al 2003, Levitz et al 2004).

Risk Assessment for Australia - Ostrich(Struthio camelus) (Linnaeus, 1758).

The extinct Mesembriornis was proposed to have been able to kick with a force of 2,401N, enough to break the bones of medium-sized ungulates.

...Mesembriornis was able to support a ground reaction force of 3.5 times the body weight, that means 2401 N. Therefore, this terror bird could have been able to fracture bones as long as those of a modern medium size ungulate like the saiga, Saiga tatarica, Thomson's gazelle, Gazella thomsoni or chamois, Rupicapra rupicapra (Blanco et al. 2003).

Blanco & Jones (2005) link

So these theropods seem to have powerful kicks. I'd expect non-avian ones, with more or less similar leg structures, to be able to do the same.

[Infinity Blade]

Duane Nash's new night stalker Tyrannosaurus post (link) has brought up something interesting about theropod feet, something that might have some relevance here.

He brings up how the feet/toes of theropods, especially large ones, were far more thickly-padded than commonly depicted. Now here's where my thoughts come in. This would elevate the claws further up from the ground (which he acknowledges), making contact with the substrate significantly less than without the padding. And in fact, it's noted that some theropod tracks lack claw marks, suggesting that thick padding would often times allow the animals to move without having the claws touch the ground.

The obvious implication is that the claw tips would remain sharper due to less contact with the ground. So my idea is that this is a point in favor of kicking.

This might also say something about leg strikes where, as opposed to a jab-like kick, the plantar surface of the foot hits something (think a slap or paw swipe directed vertically). This big, heavily-padded, sharp-clawed foot powered by enormously powerful leg muscles hitting you...

[Venomous Dragon]

Oct 15, 2016 6:40:50 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Duane Nash's new night stalker Tyrannosaurus post (link) has brought up something interesting about theropod feet, something that might have some relevance here.

He brings up how the feet/toes of theropods, especially large ones, were far more thickly-padded than commonly depicted. Now here's where my thoughts come in. This would elevate the claws further up from the ground (which he acknowledges), making contact with the substrate significantly less than without the padding. And in fact, it's noted that some theropod tracks lack claw marks, suggesting that thick padding would often times allow the animals to move without having the claws touch the ground.

The obvious implication is that the claw tips would remain sharper due to less contact with the ground. So my idea is that this is a point in favor of kicking.

This might also say something about leg strikes where, as opposed to a jab-like kick, the plantar surface of the foot hits something (think a slap or paw swipe directed vertically). This big, heavily-padded, sharp-clawed foot powered by enormously powerful leg muscles hitting you...

Why are you so obsessed with the claws being sharp? It's not like they would even need to be.

[Infinity Blade]

You're absolutely right, they don't. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt for them to be sharp.

[spartan]

Oct 15, 2016 6:40:50 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Duane Nash's new night stalker Tyrannosaurus post (link) has brought up something interesting about theropod feet, something that might have some relevance here.

Lol that T. rex looks just so goofy.

[Infinity Blade]

This is the information I have compiled so far (in fact, I got the first account from the OP of this thread). It will partly be a repost of one account from this thread, information I and others have posted in another thread (and on Carnivora), and some new published incidents and case reports I've found this morning.

Landing foot first onto his chest, Waldo, using his razor sharp toe, ripped Cash’s stomach wide open down to his belt, breaking two ribs in the process and a further three when he hit the ground. As he remembered in his autobiography, “if the belt hadn’t been good and strong, with a solid buckle, he’d have spilled my guts exactly the way he meant to”.

Source

A 71-year-old male patient presented with intra abdominal injury sustained from being kicked in the abdominal wall by an ostrich. During laparotomy, were found free peritoneal effusion and perforation of the small intestine.

Ostriches usually inflict injury in one of two ways. The first type and most serious injury is that of a slash or laceration, usually to the lower abdomen or limbs, caused by the ostrich kicking in a forward and downward motion with its powerful foot. The toe nail of the ostrich is sharp and is used by the ostrich for protection against predators.

Abdominal trauma by ostrich

The ostrich is a strange and harmless looking bird; however, in Africa attacks by ostriches on humans are not uncommon and sometimes result in death. We recently treated such a patient with an eye injury.

A 35 year old male patient presented with an injury sustained from being kicked in the face by an ostrich (Struthio camelus).

On examination the right eye was found to be normal but he had vision of bare light perception on the left with proptosis of the globe and severe chemosis of the conjunctiva. Both upper and lower lids were avulsed medially. There was limitation in all positions of gaze which was more noticeable on attempted abduction (fig 11).). The eye was soft and he had an oedematous cornea and a full hyphema. The posterior segment could not be visualised.

Severe ocular trauma caused by an ostrich (to see just what kind of damage was done, look at Fig. 1).

Disembowelment, globe and orbit perforations, and even esophageal perfortion have been documented after ostrich attack (Chauhdry, Al-Sharif, et al., 2003; Mostafa and Galiwango, 2004; Khan and Olumide, 2006).

link

Provoked and unprovoked attacks on humans by captive Ostriches have been recorded, which have resulted in minor injuries such as scrapes and bruises (King 2007), or more serious injuries such as a fractured skull (del Hoyo et al 1992, Khan and Olumide 2006) and loss of vision from kicks or pecks to the eye (Chaudhry et al 2003, Levitz et al 2004).

Source: Risk Assessment for Australia – Ostrich (Struthio camelus) (Linnaeus, 1758).

The following quote claims some of the same stuff as before, and even says that the force of an ostrich's kick rivals that of a horse's. I initially thought this was BS, given that a horse is much larger than an ostrich. But it should be noted that ratites like ostriches have the proportionately largest leg muscles of all living animals (see the abstract of Hutchinson et al., 2011); maybe this would enable kicks to be disproportionately powerful for their size?

A quick forward thrust of their foot with its extended claw can disembowel a person, and the powerful blow of a kick can break arms and legs (Spruill, 2004). In addition, they may attack and knock down unfamiliar handlers. These birds can kick forward or backward, and the forces produced by these kicks approach that of a horse kick.

link

Below is the recent information I have found.

A 13-year-old boy was referred to our Neurosurgical Department from a peripheral hospital having sustained a head injury caused by an ostrich. The boy was in a farm with his family and was playing with an ostrich. He tripped over and fell down with his face turned towards the right side. The ostrich jumped over the child and attacked him with its legs. The child was hit on the chest and the left side of the head. The child was taken to the hospital where he was found to be conscious, talking, with no focal neurological deficits. He had a minor abrasion over the chest and a laceration over the left parieto-occipital area of the head. There were no other injuries. Skull X-ray (fig. 1) showed a fracture in the left parieto-occipital bone. CT of the brain (fig. 2) showed a depressed fracture and a 4 x 4 x 5 cm haematoma in the left parieto-occipital area. CT with bone windows (fig. 3) showed a comminuted depressed fracture, with the bone fragments lying in the brain at a depth of 4 cm from the surface. All other investigations were normal.

Head Injury Caused by an Ostrich: A Rare Entity
Sci-Hub link for full access; if this does not work and you do not have full access to this publication as it is, copy and paste the doi into sci-hub.tw.

Female patient, 64 years old, living in a rural area and owner of two ostriches, domestic variant African Black, attended the Hospital and Maternity of São José dos Pinhais/PR – Brazil, relating an ostrich attack directed to her face. Facial and oral examination revealed laceration in the right infraorbital region and ptosis of the lower right eyelid. CT scan showed a blowout fracture and fracture of the anterior maxillary wall (Figure 1). The treatment option was an immediate wound debridement followed by primary wound closure (Figure 2). The patient received intravenous broad range antibiotics and tetanus prophylaxis. As soon as the swelling was solved, the fractures were surgically reduced and immobilized by wire internal fixation. A bone fragment originating from iliac crest graft was also positioned in the infraorbital region (Figure 3). It was also necessary to reposition the lower right eyelid. The patient is in follow up and no permanent damage is reported seven years after the accident, including to the eye (Figure 4). The patient has no complain of paresthesia and remains working on the farm with the animal that caused the accident.

Facial Trauma Caused By Captive Ostrich Attack Surgically Managed With Iliac Bone Graft– Case Report

Ostriches are capable of killing each other.

Indeed, in the protected zone of Mahaze as-Sayed in Saudi Arabia, nine red-necked ostriches were introduced in June and July 1994 and kept without food and water supplementation to determine if they could survive and breed under such conditions. During August and September 1995, four ostriches had died in the reserve. Veterinary examination suggested that at least three of the deaths were related to dehydration and progressive decline in body conditions, whereas the fourth involved injury after being kicked by a territorial cock.

link

Like other birds, ostriches are fluffy. Too fluffy for some anatomists– so fluffy, it’s hard imagining or estimating what they look like beneath all the feathers. A few years ago, we received an ostrich from a UK farmer. The male bird had been killed by a kick to the neck from another rival, and at the time was supposedly “Britain’s largest ostrich.” As the feathers were valuable to him, the farmer delivered the animal to us whole but plucked. I wanted to dissect it mainly to refresh my memory on ostrich anatomy while developing a biomechanical model of their limbs (see below). Taphonomy expert Jason Moore then buried it for his studies of how bodies decompose.

…


The swollen, bloody region just below the head (on the left above) is where the mortal blow struck. Ouch!

whatsinjohnsfreezer.com/2012/05/02/naked-ostrich/

^The above incident mentioned in John R. Hutchinson's blog may be significant in that, although the ostrich neck can be thought of as long and vulnerable (which is true), the neck does have one protective property, specifically for the esophagus. See below.

The oesophagus is not fixed to the cervical structure, possibly for protective purposes when fighting, during which ostriches tend to kick towards their opponent’s neck (Folwer, 1991). Following the oesophagus is the proventriculus. In ostriches the presence of a sphincter between the oesophagus and proventriculus is lacking; thus enabling the proventriculus to be “washed” if compaction occurs (Huchzermeyer 1998). The ratite family has an enlarged proventriculus which serves as an extendable storage organ in the place of a crop as seen in chickens (Fowler, 1991; Huchzermeyer, 1998; Champion & Weatherley, 2000; Table 2.1).

A study on certain factors that may affect the production and feed intake of breeding ostriches

And, below is what may be the ultimate source of claims that ostriches can kill lions with their kicks. From Birds of the World (1961).



As can be seen, the description is not detailed (it does not outline any specific incidents, let alone show any pictures or physical descriptions), nor does it cite any references. Now, to be perfectly fair, maybe the description need not be so detailed, and maybe this source itself is whose word we need to take for it, but it's still suspect, all the more so given the claim it makes.

Perhaps the most extraordinary supposed feat I've read of the ostrich's kick is its alleged ability to kick through a sheet of corrugated iron. But given how this comes from the late 19th century (1897), it's probably not worth posting here.

I have recently tried emailing Darren Naish (through what I think is his email address) to see if his view on ostrich kick potency (namely if they can kill large mammalian carnivores) has changed. Hopefully the address I sent the email to is indeed the correct one and he responds sooner or later.

[Infinity Blade]

It maybe of interest to discuss the Ostrich skeleton K. U. 20490 in which there were numerous injuries. Only the fractures of the right and left pubis have been mentioned in the account. The other fractures in this specimen have not been considered in the tabulations. This specimen, a female, was in the Kansas City Zoological Garden along with a number of others in the same pen. Of 32 fractures that had mended, the majority were of the ribs. Large bones such as the pubis and sternum were also fractured. Some of the vertebrae show a condition that may have been osteomyelitis, a disease that has not been considered in this paper. The only plausible explanation for so many injuries is that the animal probably received the fractures when it was kicked by other Ostriches.

Repaired Bone Injuries In Birds

^This description of an ostrich skeleton above is significant, in that numerous bones, like the ribs, pubis, vertebrae, and even the sternum (which is basically a thick shield of bone in ostriches) were fractured by ostrich kicks.

914 Ostrich (Struthio camelus)-fractured pelvis and femur presumed resulting from kicks by male companion.

Report of the Society's Prosector for the year 1951; if this Sci-Hub hyperlink doesn’t directly lead you to the full report, copy and paste the doi from here into sci-hub.tw.

^Again, significant in that large bones like the pelvis and femur were broken, presumably by the kick of an ostrich. The femur of an ostrich is a very robust bone covered with skin and massive musculature, as is the pelvis.

[Infinity Blade]

With their acute eyesight and hearing, ostriches can sense predators such as lions from long distances. When being pursued by a predator, they have been known to reach speeds in excess of 65 km/h, and can maintain a steady speed of 50 km/h. The cheetah is the principal predator of the ostrich, although the lion, leopard, wild dog and spotted hyena may also be a threat. Adult cocks are formidable opponents and have been seen to kick out at, and wound, large predators. For the most part, ostriches are able to out-run most threats. In a study on ostrich locomotion, the stride length in hens was significantly (p < 0.05) greater than cocks at 5, 10 and 15 m, respectively, and the speed of hens was significantly (p < 0.05) faster than cocks (Cooper 2007e). Hens may therefore escape danger faster than cocks.

Wild ostrich (Struthio camelus) ecology and physiology

[Infinity Blade]

Additional information, this time on emus.

Even emus are capable of inflicting serious injury, as shown by an adult male at the Dudley Zoo that killed its mate by inflicting many long and deep slashes across its back and sides.

Flightless Birds (by Clive Roots)

Take note of two things here.

1.) The emu killed his mate by kicking and slashing her back and sides. Not the relatively small, lightly-built skull or the long, gracile neck. The back and sides can only logically refer to the trunk (i.e the ribcage) and/or the rump. The ribcage is a short, compact, and overall highly robust skeletal structure in ratites, while the pelvis is, of course, a big strong bone. This shows that the kicks of a ratite can be fatal even when directed towards a robust body, not just when used against weedy, weak body parts.

2.) An adult male killed its mate. Adult male emus are, if anything, smaller on average than their female counterparts. Chances are the emu killed an animal approximately similar in size to itself (somewhat larger, if anything).

And below is a report documenting two cases where emus caused injuries to humans. The first one, a 1 x 2 cm laceration across the palm of the hand, sounds relatively minor, but I don't know if I could say the same for the 4 cm full-thickness cheek laceration in the second case.

www.ajemjournal.com/article/S0735-6757(96)90195-3/abstract

EDIT: actually, I'm not entirely sure what they mean by 1 x 2 cm laceration. At first I thought it was referring to width and length, but since we're talking about a laceration here, but could it be that one of these numbers refers to how deep the cut was?

EDIT 2: some old (late 19th century) accounts, take these for what you will (although, in the case of the second account, cassowaries have been documented attacking horses before).

I have read of a gentleman, who was on a visit to Government House, near Sydney, having had his lungs lacerated by by the kick of an Emu in the back when he entered the park to view the birds.

Transactions and Journal of Proceedings, Issues 11-15, pp. 48-49

The young man who accompanied Harry told him that he knew of an instance where an emu was chased and overtaken by a man on horseback, accompanied by dogs. The bird became desperate at finding he could not escape. As the bird approached, the bird threw itself on its back and kicked savagely, ripping the side of the animal with its claws. The horse was so badly lacerated that it was necessary to shoot him.

The Land of the Kangaroo: Adventures of Two Youths in a Journey Through the Great Island Continent, p. 252

[Infinity Blade]

Nov 4, 2015 17:14:32 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Actually, there are some Tyrannosaurus specimens with facial pathologies that were proposed to have been caused by the pedal claws of conspecifics (I posted it in the theropod non-locomotory limb function thread and discussed it a bit on its validity). And IF they indeed lowered their faces down for some reason, I can honestly see this notion being the case.

The following information is from Clawing Their Way to the Top: Tyrannosaurid Pathology and Lifestyle (Rothschild, 2013). In particular, pathologies caused by conspecific pedal claws in Tyrannosaurus.





Here are a few claw-damaged specimens mentioned in the text above.





Possible relative attack positions (the one standing on one leg probably has its leg too straightened out, though).



Tyrannosaurid footprints with well-preserved claw imprints show that the claws were indeed tapered to a point, therefore sharp; see Fig. 12.

Most striking in its appearance is the three-dimensional preservation of the claw impression which is an impression of the lateral surface rather than the normal ventral surface. The claw appears expanded proximally and steadily tapering distally to a point, as seen in examples of tyrannosaurid pedal claws in Tyrrell collections (Fig. 13).

This unique specimen likely represents a record of a relatively recent injury to the trackmaker because the affected claw retains its normal shape in spite of being dislocated beneath the foot. The claw does not appear abraded or worn, suggesting the injury had been incurred shortly before the footprint was made. However, the caudal portion of the claw impression in the area that articulates with the rest of the digit appears to be very narrow in comparison with the rest of the digit. With such a dramatic dislocation it is possible that the soft tissues of this joint had atrophied due to constriction of the blood supply. The ichnopathology may not have been a freshly incurred dislocation at the time this track was made, but the injury would not have been very old. It seems likely that such an injury would have eventually resulted in necrosis of the soft tissues and may have led to the loss of a portion of this trackmaker’s digit.

Out of the 14 tyrannosaurid footprints reported to date, four of which are from Alberta (McCrea et al., 2005. Fanti et al., 2013, McCrea et al., 2014b), eight from British Columbia (Farlow et al., 2009, McCrea et al., 2014b), one from the United States (Lockley and Hunt, 1994), and one from Mongolia (Currie et al., 2003), three footprints from two individuals exhibit remarkable pathologies. This amounts to 21% of individual tyrannosaur footprints with pathologies so far, or 14% of individual trackmakers.

Pedal pathologies, and pathologic tracks, in theropods are not common. A theropod track either isolated or in a trackway, exhibits a characteristic preservation: the medial edge of the foot (digit II) impresses deeper than the lateral edge (digit IV). Digit II is inferred to have relatively more of the animal’s body weight supported on it than digit IV, with digits II and III being the primary weight-bearing digits (Hopson, 2001). Likewise, Lockley (2000, 2007) noted that digit II is typically, shorter, wider and more anteriorly located than digit IV. During the avian step cycle, the subphalangeal pads of all digits contact the substrate simultaneously (Senter, 2009). Assuming the theropod foot moved in a similar manner to that of an extant bird foot (although Farlow et al., 2000 show differences in theropod and avian gait), it is unlikely that the injuries to the digits are the result of normal locomotion. In other words, theropods likely did not contact the ground preferentially with one digit, which might have increased the likelihood of differential stress or injury. It is unlikely that these pathologies were caused by scavenging. It is reasonable to suppose that wounds like this would be caused by restraining large, struggling prey, or fighting with other predators (Tanke and Currie, 2000).

Vertebrate Ichnopathology: Pathologies Inferred from Dinosaur Tracks and Trackways from the Mesozoic

[Verdugo]

Thanks Infinity Blade, i have a good reading!

Anyway, i found a paper that is against the idea of 'kicking T-rex' of Rothschild (2013). You may want to take a look: Tyrannosaurids didn't use their claws in combat

"Rothschild (2013) suggested that many of the facial and postcranial scars in tyrannosaurid
specimens are in fact caused by claws of the other tyrannosaurids. However, the
evidences suggested by Rothschild (2013) are very weak. Tooth marks can have very
different shapes with real tooth sections or shapes, and multi-ton giants like
tyrannosaurids would have been impossible to kick each others' faces. Also, the very short,
range limited tyrannosaurid forelimbs would be impossible to hit the opponents' faces."

In my opinion, even assuming that T-rex is far too large to perform an attack as athletic as kicking another standing T-rex in the face (and as you have pointed out, the leg of the standing T-rex in the model may be far too straight), something like a stomp would still have been in the realm of possibilities. A T-rex could have knocked another T-rex over and then stomped on the lying T-rex's face with its foot. The claw marks produced by this attack will also be similar to the injuries described in Rothschild (2013). 

A visual presentation of what i am describing (yes i know it's Walking with Dinosaurs but this is just for demonstration purpose)



www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9IjL2RCFoI
Notice the stomp at 2:56