Theropod kicks.

[Infinity Blade]

Anyway, i found a paper that is against the idea of 'kicking T-rex' of Rothschild (2013). You may want to take a look: Tyrannosaurids didn't use their claws in combat

"Rothschild (2013) suggested that many of the facial and postcranial scars in tyrannosaurid
specimens are in fact caused by claws of the other tyrannosaurids. However, the
evidences suggested by Rothschild (2013) are very weak. Tooth marks can have very
different shapes with real tooth sections or shapes, and multi-ton giants like
tyrannosaurids would have been impossible to kick each others' faces. Also, the very short,
range limited tyrannosaurid forelimbs would be impossible to hit the opponents' faces."

I've known this for as long as I've known Rothschild's paper, and I've addressed it. I get why the idea of a 6t biped using its feet as weapons sounds implausible, but his arguments and defense were...less than satisfactory (e.g. he mentions jumping was impossible, but jumping was never proposed; he thinks tooth marks could be made larger by shaking or multiple bites, the former of which is not how bone deforms AFAIK and the latter of which is not consistent with pathology distribution). See this post for more details.

Also, quite recently I emailed Dr. Rothschild himself; this was apparently the first he had ever seen this and sure enough, he wasn't swayed either. Black text is me. Blue text is Dr. Rothschild.

Hello Dr. Rothschild. I believe you were the one who published Clawing Their Way to the Top: Tyrannosaurid Pathology and Lifestyle in Tyrannosaurid Paleobiology.

I was wondering, have you seen this 2015 reply to that paper? It’s a short (non-peer reviewed) reply that challenges the interpretation of claws causing pathologies seen in tyrannosaurids.

peerj.com/preprints/980/

While I did read the reply for myself and wasn’t really convinced by it, I was curious to see what you yourself think of it and whether you agree to the objections in it.

Thank you for your time.

[name withheld]

Dear [name withheld],
Thank you for drawing this to my attention. No, I had not seen it. You are correct that the comments are not convincing. The author ignored the penetration of two cranial bones and the perfect fit of a pedal claw. He also ignored the demonstration of posture that permitted such damage. Further, the author did not provide evidence for his claim that teeth could be responsible for all lesions. Interesting you sent a "preprint" Was it ever published?
Sincerely,
Bruce

I’m not sure if it was ever actually published. At least not in a peer-reviewed journal (since it never was peer-reviewed).

Dear [name withheld],
I was reviewing his publications. He seems to really like preprints, but none seem to have sufficiently impress reviewers to be actually published.
Bruce

It must be stressed that I'm not proposing T. rex would kick really high up to another T. rex's face like a taekwondo practitioner*, but I think low-to-the-ground attacks where the kick-ee's head is low to the ground (e.g. drinking or feeding off of a carcass) are still in the realm of plausibility.

*This rather dynamic skeletal and illustration by Scott Hartman may give us an idea of how high a T. rex might kick. Of course, this may not necessarily mean it actually did this in practice, but just a thought. Not completely necessary anyway, as long as a body part was low enough to the ground to be attacked by either one of the pedes.

[Verdugo]

Ok, glad you were aware of that article, i'm myself not totally convinced either. Anyway, so the evidence of T rex-sized Theropods capable of kicking is pretty strong atm? (at least for a low, mid-kick, or a stomp)
Something like this



What's your opinion on Theropods' foot grappling? (balancing on one leg and using the other for grappling)

[dinosauria101]

Jul 8, 2019 10:09:18 GMT 5 Verdugo said:

What's your opinion on Theropods' foot grappling? (balancing on one leg and using the other for grappling)

I think there may be something in the Titanoboa vs Majungasaurus thread concerning that which you may want to read:
theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/524/titanoboa-cerrejonensis-majungasaurus-crenatissimus

[Infinity Blade]

Ok, glad you were aware of that article, i'm myself not totally convinced either. Anyway, so the evidence of T rex-sized Theropods capable of kicking is pretty strong atm? (at least for a low, mid-kick, or a stomp)

I suppose so. Also, aside from the pathologies to tyrannosaurid feet, and pathologies caused by their pedal claws, we seem to have similar evidence for other theropod taxa. We have such evidence for Allosaurus, as theropod mentioned on page 1 (Rothschild et al., 2001; also, see this post->, as well as Foster & Lucas (2006) for juvenile Camarasaurus bones with pedal claw marks from Allosaurus from either attack or feeding). But we also have a pathological second digit pedal phalanx from Australovenator, which was interpreted as being caused by kicking and using the second digit claw as a weapon (I made a post about it). And we have puncture wounds in Dilophosaurus possibly caused by kicking (Senter & Juengst, 2016; although, note that a swat from a Dilophosaurus forelimb or a kick from a prey item is also considered).

Edit: just gonna drop this off here just in case. I've tried finding access to Rothschild et al. (2001), but this is a good enough summary of it.

Currie (1997) noted that "as theropods became faster, they needed more control and better shock absorption in their feet", noting that "the lower end of the third metatarsal would have contacted the ground first when a theropod was running". Lack of correlation in pes stress fractures in Allosaurus with the anticipated running pattern (third digit predisposition was not found) suggests an alternative explanation - that the stress fractures occurred during direct prey interactions. This is not related to direct trauma, as occurs if the foot is stepped on. Rather, it occurs in the areas stressed as the foot is used in holding struggling prey. Such stress fracture distributions, not limited to primary weight-bearing forces, can be taken as evidence for predatory behavior.

source->

What's your opinion on Theropods' foot grappling? (balancing on one leg and using the other for grappling)

Sustained grappling might lead them to compromise their stability for too long, and the longer a biped is on one leg, the more time there is for something to go wrong. But I definitely think pinning down prey with a foot would have been done too. That most predatory non-avian theropods had their largest pedal claw on pedal digit II (the strongest digit with the most amount of leverage) is consistent with this (I made a post about this too).

[theropod]

There is actually pathological evidence suggesting Allosaurus would have used its feet for pinning down struggling prey (Rothschild et al. 2001). Allosaurus foot bones frequently show stress fractures, and these are not concentrated in mt-III, as one would expect them to be if they were related to running.

Rothschild, B., Tanke, D. H., and Ford, T. L.. 2001. Theropod stress fractures and tendon avulsions as a clue to activity: In: Mesozoic Vertebrate Life, edited by Tanke, D. H., and Carpenter, K., Indiana University Press, pp. 331-336

[Infinity Blade]

Here's a news article reporting an emu scratching a zoo keeper (in her 20s) across the face and arms. The injuries were minor, but they were apparently enough to hospitalize her.

www.adelaidenow.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts/emu-scratches-adelaide-zoo-keeper/news-story/e5ebf0fa9891ed2f67597d4499638f10

[Infinity Blade]

One could probably argue that this account's age and what it describes are grounds to dismiss it, but honestly, this was too intriguing (and eyebrow raising?) to not post here. So just take it for what you will.

The kick is a most extraordinary and complicated performance. It is not delivered backwards, like that of the horse, but the leg is thrown forwards and outwards, until the foot is high in the air. It is then brought down like the blow of a flail, the object being to strike the foe with the formidable claw, and rip it open.

Mostly, however, the blow is struck with the flat of the foot, and even then can inflict a serious injury. Instances are known where attendants on the birds have been killed outright by a single blow, and in one farm near Graff [sic] Reinet, the back of a horse was broken by the kick of an ostrich. The bird had struck at the rider, had missed him, and the blow had fallen on the back of the unfortunate horse.

Wood (1889)->

Interestingly, it mentions that the kick is often with the flat of the foot, not the actual claw itself. If true, then I can't help but wonder if that plays a role in how often ostrich kicks are injurious or fatal.

[Infinity Blade]

At last, after a decade of animal forums, searching for sufficient proof, I have stumbled upon a detailed account of an ostrich killing lions. Three-quarter grown lions, but still, very impressive in my book.

Tony Archer, a knowledgeable naturalist who arrived on the scene just after the occurrence, reported that an ostrich had killed two lions. A Masai man had witnessed the whole dramatic episode, and Tony had questioned him carefully. There is front of them were two dead lions, three-quarters grown, and a dead adult ostrich hen. The Masai said he was watching as ostrich pair with their newly hatched chicks feeding peacefully. Suddenly a lioness appeared with three of her own young. The cock immediately led the chicks to safety while the hen advanced on the predators. A hen with newly hatched chicks is often savage. The young lions began to close in and within a minute or two there was a brief but violent struggle. When the animals parted, two young lions had fallen, one with a broken back and the other with a blow to the head caused by the hen’s rapid, powerful downward kicks. Seconds later the lioness pounced on the hen and killed it with a few bites.

www.naturalhistorymag.com/htmlsite/master.html?https://www.naturalhistorymag.com/htmlsite/editors_pick/1986_12_pick.html

[Supercommunist]

Video of kiwis kicking each other. Their attacks seem more precise than a ratite's.

[Infinity Blade]

I've also noticed that their actual claws seem to be consistently sharper as well. Whereas ratites tend to have claws worn and blunted claws, the same doesn't seem to apply to kiwis, or at least not nearly as much.









It makes me think that the whole "non-retractable claws get blunted from touching the ground" thing is a bit more complicated than that. The fact that coyotes living in rocky vs sandy regions have claws with different levels of wear (i.e. substantial wear vs little to no wear, respectively) already suggests so (link->).

[Supercommunist]

Anyone able to get access on this paper?

bioone.org/journals/journal-of-the-arizona-nevada-academy-of-science/volume-50/issue-1/036.050.0103/Observation-of-Claw-Use-and-Feeding-Behavior-of-the-Red/10.2181/036.050.0103.short

[Infinity Blade]

Mar 22, 2024 11:04:37 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

Anyone able to get access on this paper?

bioone.org/journals/journal-of-the-arizona-nevada-academy-of-science/volume-50/issue-1/036.050.0103/Observation-of-Claw-Use-and-Feeding-Behavior-of-the-Red/10.2181/036.050.0103.short

Not even the site that rhymes with Sky Dub has this paper yet. Best option would probably be to email one of the authors for a full PDF.

[Supercommunist]

Possibly the first recorded footage of a seriema hunting. It tries to take down a decent sized snake with kicks but ends up backing off.