LeopJag
Member
Panthera kryptikos (cryptic, evasive panther)
Posts: 440
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Post by LeopJag on May 27, 2013 4:06:56 GMT 5
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Post by Grey on May 27, 2013 4:20:23 GMT 5
Nice info!
But I would expect that the most resistant skin would be among bears, of course primarily due to the fat.
Beside this gruesome wound, have you other examples of felids surviving nasty wounds ?
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Post by Runic on May 27, 2013 4:32:11 GMT 5
Dromaeosaurid claws weren't as well adapted to ripping as cats claws (Drom claws were round at the cross section unlike cats however Eudromaeosauria had more bladed claws than their relatives) but instead the claws stabbed (which imo is far more lethal as it hurts more, penetrates deeper and allows greater anchorage for grappling than cat claws). I could explain in better details if any are interested?
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Post by Grey on May 27, 2013 5:43:38 GMT 5
Yes, I am interested by the killing style of raptors. Make a thread if you have sources and stuff.
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Post by Runic on May 27, 2013 6:37:34 GMT 5
Yes, I am interested by the killing style of raptors. Make a thread if you have sources and stuff. Ok,it will take a few days to make the thread as I have to re dig up my info (most of which was on carnivore) |
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Post by creature386 on May 27, 2013 19:14:20 GMT 5
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Post by Runic on May 27, 2013 20:29:02 GMT 5
Thank you! Ill have the thread up before the day is over. |
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Post by theropod on May 27, 2013 21:48:16 GMT 5
My claw replica of a velociraptors 2nd pedal ungual doesn't seem to be oval in cross-section (btw some people have also claimed carnosaur teeth to be oval in cross-section, so that doesn't mean much), there is a marked edge. of course not razor sharp, but with ceratine covering it is not unreasonable to assume it would be damn sharp.
Of course the claws could still primarily be for stabbing, but a sharp edge would help increase the damage done and the ouncture itself.
Will delete this and copy it to the drom-thread, maybe add some photos, remind me if I forget to do so!
About the cat skin, i find it really funny how Taipan claims it to be resistant to just about anything without having actual proof. When I asked for evidence he just responded you couldn't find imaes of evidently clawed cats (You cannot find images of clawed penguins, does that mean a penguin beats a Deinonychus?). I do not doubt cat skin is loose and tough, but as already demonstrated here it can still be cut.
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Post by Runic on May 27, 2013 22:36:31 GMT 5
^ yours isn't oval in the cross section because it doesn't have the keratin sheath like other reptiles.
Reptiles and mammal claws are made of different types of keratin coverings. Reptile claws are more rounded and thicker while mammalian claws are generally thinner. I'll explain it all soon.
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Post by theropod on May 28, 2013 1:30:36 GMT 5
But that doesn't make sense. Why a sharp core and a rounded sheath? How is the core and sheath shaped in extant reptiles like monitor lizards and accipritids for comparison?
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Post by Runic on May 28, 2013 2:03:52 GMT 5
But that doesn't make sense. Why a sharp core and a rounded sheath? How is the core and sheath shaped in extant reptiles like monitor lizards and accipritids for comparison? The sheath isn't technically rounded, it's barrel shaped following the length of the core to the tip, examples,   Notice how much broader ad circular the claws of reptiles and birds are compared to cats,  Reptiles generally have more barrel shaped claws than mammals due to a different type of keratin covering. I'll explain the type in my next post. Birds and dromaeoaurds claws are more suited for stabbing (hence such great foward/backward toe flexion) while cats mainly only use their claws for holding on to prey (hence their retracted to keep their sharpness). I'll explain in better detail in my next post. |
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Post by Runic on May 28, 2013 2:11:48 GMT 5
How do you quote text? Anyways
Claw form and function varies widely among vertebrates, however, claw sheath composition does not. Claw sheaths, nails, and hooves are composed of keratin, a strong, fibrous protein (Raven and Johnson, 1992). Keratin protects the bone of the terminal phalanx and assists in providing traction during climbing, prey capture, and occasionally killing [brief review in Manning et al., (2006)]. The morphology of dromaeosaurid unguals, combined with rare soft tissue preservation (Clark et al., 1999), indicates that theropod claws would have been similarly protected. Extant Phylogenetic Bracketing [EPB: Witmer (1995)] can be used to reconstruct the structure and properties of the keratin claw sheaths possessed by nonavian dinosaurs. Mammal claw sheaths are composed of ?-keratin (helical), but bird and reptile claws are composed of ?-keratins (pleated-sheet) (Fraser and MacRae, 1980). As nonavian dinosaurs fall within the EPB formed by birds and crocodilians and leave similar osteological traces (attachment grooves) it is likely that the claw sheaths of these animals were also composed of ?-keratin (Manning et al., 2006).
Claws covered in pleated kertin sheaths are generally longer, thicker, and more barrel shaped than claws made of helical keratin. A good comparison is how harpy eagle and monitor lizard, though smaller on most occasion, have claws that are generally much more robust and larger than much larger animals such as pantherine and ursids.
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Post by theropod on May 28, 2013 2:30:24 GMT 5
How do you quote text? Anyways Claw form and function varies widely among vertebrates, however, claw sheath composition does not. Claw sheaths, nails, and hooves are composed of keratin, a strong, fibrous protein (Raven and Johnson, 1992). Keratin protects the bone of the terminal phalanx and assists in providing traction during climbing, prey capture, and occasionally killing [brief review in Manning et al., (2006)]. The morphology of dromaeosaurid unguals, combined with rare soft tissue preservation (Clark et al., 1999), indicates that theropod claws would have been similarly protected. Extant Phylogenetic Bracketing [EPB: Witmer (1995)] can be used to reconstruct the structure and properties of the keratin claw sheaths possessed by nonavian dinosaurs. Mammal claw sheaths are composed of ?-keratin (helical), but bird and reptile claws are composed of ?-keratins (pleated-sheet) (Fraser and MacRae, 1980). As nonavian dinosaurs fall within the EPB formed by birds and crocodilians and leave similar osteological traces (attachment grooves) it is likely that the claw sheaths of these animals were also composed of ?-keratin (Manning et al., 2006).
Claws covered in pleated kertin sheaths are generally longer, thicker, and more barrel shaped than claws made of helical keratin. A good comparison is how harpy eagle and monitor lizard, though smaller on most occasion, have claws that are generally much more robust and larger than much larger animals such as pantherine and ursids. A comparison of the cores would nevertheless be needed to see how the core influences the shape.. Two letters don't allow an inference about obligate claw-shapes in all reptiles. And I think you should give the reference for the text, you seemingly forget that from time to time. Quoting works just like on carnivora. |
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Post by theropod on May 28, 2013 2:33:50 GMT 5
it is often unwise to make statements about morphology not based on anatomy but concluding from phylogeny. It is true the majority of dinosaurs and reptiles had rounded claws. However reptiles are a damn diverse group, and there are always exceptions. Most mammal claws aren't sharpn either.
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Post by Runic on May 28, 2013 2:35:52 GMT 5
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