Bengal Tiger vs Grizzly Bear

[grizzly]

Vodmeister says: A study shown a long time ago in Carnivore forum has already proven that adult, male +12 year old Grizzly Bears from Yellowstone average 490 pounds.

I seriously doubt that because no study has *ever been done and 600+ pound grizzly are commonplace. However, rather than an endless argument, I will go along with a not-so-big male grizzly at 490 pounds. That is 50 pounds heavier than the biggest bear ever known to be killed by a tiger - and a boar. Remember also, the only fight ever witnessed ( reliable witness ) was in 1943 Amur River. The grizzly killed the tiger. I have absolutely no doubt that the grizzly would defeat the Bengal tiger in at least 75% of face-off encounters. 
 
I was having a computer problem - please delete this second take -

[Vodmeister]

I seriously doubt that because no study has *ever been done and 600+ pound grizzly are commonplace.

Actually, a study has been done before to weigh and record the size of adult male Grizzly Bears from Yellowstone National Park.

Note the size given to various age groups:

14+ year old adult male Grizzly Bears in Yellowstone National Park average about 222 kg, 490 pounds.

Also note the sample size given:

A total of 263 Bears were weighed. This study is very reliable.

A detailed look inside the specific size and numbers of sex and age groups:

26 of those Bears were (what you consider to be) adult males and above the age of 10. Only 2 of them were above 600 pounds, one weighed 610 pounds, the other 600 pounds.

2 out of 26 Bears is hardly "common".

[Vodmeister]

Jun 8, 2013 5:39:27 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Remember also, the only fight ever witnessed ( reliable witness ) was in 1943 Amur River. The grizzly killed the tiger.

Yeah, but the Russian Brown Bear is bigger than the American Grizzly, by about 100 pounds; and Bengal Tigers are slightly larger than Siberian Tigers, by about 50 pounds. Therefore, this face-off would be quite a bit closer than Russian Bear vs Amur Tiger

I was having a computer problem - please delete this second take.

You can delete your own posts, just click on the toolbar in the top right of the post screen, and click "Delete Post".

[grizzly]

That so-called study to find the weights of grizzly bears was performed before the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone ( 1995 ). The grizzly bears are actually bigger now due to eating more red meat, due to usurping wolf kills. In your "study", the biggest bear by far was the one 716.50 pound boar. There are quite often now grizzlies ranging in weight aboves 800 pounds; in rare cases 900+ pound. And, contrary to what you claimed, few of the bears weighed were 12+ year old alpha male grizzly bears. 

[Vodmeister]

That so-called study to find the weights of grizzly bears was performed before the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone ( 1995 ). The grizzly bears are actually bigger now due to eating more red meat, due to usurping wolf kills. In your "study", the biggest bear by far was the one 716.50 pound boar. There are quite often now grizzlies ranging in weight aboves 800 pounds; in rare cases 900+ pound.

I didn't see the 324.6 kg Bear, good on you for spotting that, but still, 3 out of 24 Bears is not common.

Likewise, if Wolves were introduced in 1995, 18 years is not nearly enough to make a genetic difference in size. The Bears today might be slightly heavier, but that's it. The Grizzly would have to co-exist with Wolves for centuries at least before it adapts to become larger.

Also, 800-900 pound Mountain Grizzlies are very, very rare. There's no way only 18 years of co-existence with Wolves could somehow turn a population which averages 490 pounds, and make 800-900 pound animals common. 

Maybe Grizzlies are bigger now, but that's nothing more but an assumption. By far the most logical thing to do is to go by the data we do have, rather than typical guesswork.

And, contrary to what you claimed, few of the bears weighed were 12+ year old alpha male grizzly bears.

The >12 year old Grizzly Bears have a seperate chart and data table. Did you even read the information? The chart clearly states that >12 year old Grizzly Bears averaged about 222 kg, or 490 pounds.

Now if you were to take all Bears above the age of 5 (sexually matured but not physically), then the average goes down to 420 pounds.

[grizzly]

Were each and every single grizzly 12 years old or older captured and weighed? I think not. You cannot carve a number in stone as being the exact weight of the average adult male grizzly. The biggest oldest bears are likely too smart to even be captured. But, we could argue this throughout all eternity. Bottom line is: no tiger has ever been recorded killing a healthy adult male grizzly. The grizzly has been recorded killing a healthy adult male tiger.
Tigers - 0.
Grizzlies - 1. 
  
-and yes, grizzly bears have increased in size since the reintroduction of the wolf. It has nothing to do with genetics. Just more red meat. 

[grizzly]

Vodmeister says; 26 of those Bears were (what you consider to be) adult males and above the age of 10. Only 2 of them were above 600 pounds, one weighed 610 pounds, the other 600 pounds.

2 out of 26 Bears is hardly "common".

*Only 14 of them were 12+ years. Their average weight = 512.5 pounds, which I believe is a low number.
 
It is not surprising that so few 600 pounders were captued. Those wise old battle scared veterans from 600 upwards to 900 pounds are not going to be standing around waiting to be shot or captured by humans. Most of those are killed by accident such as automobiles and trains.  14 male grizzly bears 12 years old or older are not enough of a population of roughly 600 bears to be captured and weighed to accept as a reliable average size. Another point, grizzly bears of North America grow larger than those of Eurasia. 



 


 

[Runic]

Wow I missed a lot.

[Vodmeister]

Jun 8, 2013 17:35:19 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Were each and every single grizzly 12 years old or older captured and weighed? I think not. You cannot carve a number in stone as being the exact weight of the average adult male grizzly. The biggest oldest bears are likely too smart to even be captured. But, we could argue this throughout all eternity. Bottom line is: no tiger has ever been recorded killing a healthy adult male grizzly. The grizzly has been recorded killing a healthy adult male tiger.
Tigers - 0.
Grizzlies - 1. 

You seem to have a hard time understanding even the basics.

1. 18 of the Bears weighed were adult males above the age of 12.
2. Out of those 18 Bears, the average was 222 kg.
3. Therefore, the average fully grown male Grizzly is 490 pounds.

Also, Russian Brownies are larger than American Grizzlies by about 100 pounds; while Bengal Tigers are larger than Siberian Tigers by about 50 pounds.

An adult male Russian Brownie has a 150 pound weight advantage over the Siberian Tiger, of course it was going to win; the adult male American Grizzly has no weight advantage over a Bengal Tiger - now the tides are turned.

-and yes, grizzly bears have increased in size since the reintroduction of the wolf. It has nothing to do with genetics. Just more red meat.

Give us scientific evidence that Grizzly Bears have increased significantly in size since Wolf population. 18 years is not nearly enough to make any significant difference, it would take centuries.

[Runic]

It is said grizzly have gotten bigger because they just steal wolf kills now that they were reintroduced.

[Vodmeister]

Jun 8, 2013 19:43:28 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Vodmeister says; 26 of those Bears were (what you consider to be) adult males and above the age of 10. Only 2 of them were above 600 pounds, one weighed 610 pounds, the other 600 pounds.

2 out of 26 Bears is hardly "common".

*Only 14 of them were 12+ years. Their average weight = 512.5 pounds, which I believe is a low number.

Again, look at this chart;

Adult male Grizzlies above the age of 14 average only about 220 kg, the chart is clear as blue evidence.

It is not surprising that so few 600 pounders were captued. Those wise old battle scared veterans from 600 upwards to 900 pounds are not going to be standing around waiting to be shot or captured by humans. Most of those are killed by accident such as automobiles and trains. 14 male grizzly bears 12 years old or older are not enough of a population of roughly 600 bears to be captured and weighed to accept as a reliable average size. Another point, grizzly bears of North America grow larger than those of Eurasia.

That's a pretty ironic excuse, because Tigers are far more affected than Bears by human activities. There are hundreds of thousands of American Grizzlies, yet only about 2,500 Bengal Tigers. If Tigers were as common as Grizzlies, a 700 pound Bengal Tiger would be as common as a 700 pound American Grizzly -eg. very rare.

[Vodmeister]

Jun 8, 2013 23:27:25 GMT 5 Runic said:

It is said grizzly have gotten bigger because they just steal wolf kills now that they were reintroduced.

Wolves were introduced to Yellowstone in 1995. It would take a lot longer than 18 years for that to have any significant impact on Grizzly size, at least centuries.

Also, Bears don't win every encounter against Wolves.

[Runic]

Obviously lol i was just telling you what I heard. The bears in Yellowstone apparently don't hunt as much as they just bully wolves off their kills.

[Vodmeister]

Jun 8, 2013 23:32:29 GMT 5 Runic said:

Obviously lol i was just telling you what I heard. The bears in Yellowstone apparently don't hunt as much as they just bully wolves off their kills.

Yep, that is probable, but hugely over-exaggerated. Truth is, scientific evidence suggests that both the American Grizzly and Bengal Tiger average about 220 kg. Do you really think that in only a mere 18 years, Grizzly Bears would somehow have gained so much weight that a 300 kg animal would be an average/normal specimen?

Grizzly claims this to be true, but I highly doubt it, size doesn't change that quickly.

[Runic]

True I agree.