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Post by theropod on Jun 9, 2013 0:40:31 GMT 5
Vodmeister: I think you are making the mistake to believe the reason for the supposed size increase would be in genetics. Of course that would take longer. But better diet (in this case much better access to fresh meat) can also greatly influence size, without necessarily leaving genetic traces. A human who suffers from malnutrition will hardly grow as well as one that doesn't.
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 9, 2013 1:06:16 GMT 5
Vodmeister says: Also, Russian Brownies are larger than American Grizzlies by about 100 pounds; while Bengal Tigers are larger than Siberian Tigers by about 50 pounds.
An adult male Russian Brownie has a 150 pound weight advantage over the Siberian Tiger, of course it was going to win; the adult male American Grizzly has no weight advantage over a Bengal Tiger - now the tides are turned.
First of all, grizzly bear ( Ursus arctos horribilis ) is not only a single species, but also a single sub-species. So if you really want to get technical, the grizzly bear averages much heavier than your ridiculous 490 pounds. In fact, the vast majority of living grizzly bears are the giant peninsula bears of Alaska.
But, when talking strictly of a particular population of grizzly ( so as to give the tiger at least some chance of a win ) the mountain grizzly individuals are found relatively often weighing between 800 and 900 pounds. And yes, 600+ pound mountain grizzly are indeed commonplace.
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 9, 2013 1:11:50 GMT 5
Vodmeister: I think you are making the mistake to believe the reason for the supposed size increase would be in genetics. Of course that would take longer. But better diet (in this case much better access to fresh meat) can also greatly influence size, without necessarily leaving genetic traces. A human who suffers from malnutrition will hardly grow as well as one that doesn't. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 9, 2013 1:13:53 GMT 5
Grizzly, 600 pound Mountain Grizzlies are not common, the percentage of Grizzlies above 600 pounds is probably no greater than the ratio of Bengal Tigers above 600 pounds. As for your second comment, 800-900 pound Grizzlies are very rare, Tigers have reached 846 and 857 pounds before too. But instead of freak specimens, wouldn't it be much more logical to stick with a typical, average specimen?
A modern day Bengal Tiger would stand very little or no chance against a 900-1000 pound Coastal Brown Bear, I've never denied this, and even gave the Coastal Brownie 90% of all face-off victories. However, a Mountain Grizzly is only half as large, maybe a normal weight of 480-500 pounds, and a Tiger would win at least 50% of all match-ups against it, if not higher.
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 9, 2013 1:18:09 GMT 5
Vodmeister: I think you are making the mistake to believe the reason for the supposed size increase would be in genetics. Of course that would take longer. But better diet (in this case much better access to fresh meat) can also greatly influence size, without necessarily leaving genetic traces. A human who suffers from malnutrition will hardly grow as well as one that doesn't. The re-introduction of Wolves will have made Grizzlies less active hunters, and slightly heavier, but I highly doubt that suddenly a 300 kg specimen would become a norm, when on average they are only about 220 kg. The study done on Bengal Tigers which concluded an average weight of 221 kg (487 pounds) was also done a decade ago or so. Tigers have increased significantly in population since then, they are now much better protected, and therefore likely larger, but you don't hear me making assumptions about how large Tigers today "might" be. |
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 9, 2013 3:18:07 GMT 5
Vodmeister says: Yeah, but the Russian Brown Bear is bigger than the American Grizzly, by about 100 pounds; and Bengal Tigers are slightly larger than Siberian Tigers, by about 50 pounds. Therefore, this face-off would be quite a bit closer than Russian Bear vs Amur Tiger
The size difference between the American mountain grizzly and the Russian grizzly is not so great. The Siberian tiger is both taller and longer than the Bengal tiger. The Siberian tiger is the biggest of the big cats, while the Bengal is the heaviest. Some experts believe that in the past, Siberians were also the heaviest of the big cats. However, there are no records of tigers killing adult male grizzly bears.
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 9, 2013 3:23:23 GMT 5
I can partially agree with that, but we've had more than enough Tiger vs Grizzly debates in the past 3 years, and I'm not exactly motivated enough to have another one with final exams coming up soon.
I want this forum to be more enjoyable, a site where we can post interesting information; such as feats done by Grizzlies, Tigers and Lions on durability. As for this face-off, I can agree to disagree, I'm not energized enough for another debate.
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 9, 2013 14:44:20 GMT 5
From your chart on page #5... four 12 year old bears averaging 439 pounds each. two 13 year old bears averaging 575 pounds each. two 14 year old bears averaging 514 pounds each. one 15 year old weighing 664 pounds. two 16 year olds averaging 573 pounds each. one puny 17 year old weighing 326 pounds. one 20 year old bear weighing 476 pounds. one 22 year old bear weighing 525 pounds. Total - 7,071 divided by 14 = 505 pounds. If you look at the chart, size range of the male grizzly bears 12 years and above, you will notice that among the few bears weighed were numerous 600+ pound specimens. 600 pound grizzly bears are commonplace. But, I will agree to an average of 500 pounds.  |
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 10, 2013 1:00:21 GMT 5
Peter Wrote:
The female brown bear was estimated at 150-200 kg. The weight wasn't confirmed. There are reports of male brown bears killed by Amur tigers. They were posted and debated in the thread 'Male brown bears are not out of the predatory reach of male tigers if of similar size'. My advice is to read the thread when you can. Good information. A few examples. Jankowski wrote he, his brothers and a Korean professional hunter shot a large male tiger near the Sungari in July 1943. The tiger had killed and eaten a large, old male brown bear (Mazak, 1983). Russian authorities didn't accept the report for lack of evidence, but Mazak posted a photograph of the tiger, who was estimated at 650 pounds. Mazak also wrote about a young Russian biologist who died well before his time. His notes say a large, old male brown bear was killed by a tiger in Sichote-Alin. Also not accepted for obvious reasons. Rakov wrote about a 'large brown bear' killed and eaten by a tiger in winter. Alexious thought it was a male brown bear. There are more examples, but they too were not accepted for lack of information. I collected what was posted and concluded there is no doubt Amur tigers have killed 'large brown bears' in the recent past. As most of these were killed in winter, it is assumed they were 'Schatuns'. I know of two male Amur tigers killed by brown bears. Both reports were accepted, but I have yet to read anything even close to a report. Meaning posters probably aren't the only ones using double standards. What I have, suggests clashes between adult males have occured. It could be bears win most fights 'on points'. Male tigers wounded by brown bears have been seen more than once. But why is there only one report of a male Amur tiger displaced by a male brown bear (Chapter 19)? Would male tigers prefer to abandon their kill in order to prevent damage when they see a male brown bear coming? Is this unnoticed by researchers? Do male brown bears want to avoid problems as well? We don't know. If what I saw in captive animals of both species is close to reality, animosity could be the general rule. Male Amur tigers in particular dislike brown bears and I noticed they do not discriminate between small and large bears. The Amur tigers I saw were very aggressive towards brown bears. All in all, I would get to unclear in adult males. We know about specialized tigers, satellite bears, kill sites and victims, but most reports lack details. There isn't much on adult males. For lack of better, I would get to mutual avoidance for now. However. My guess is things could be a bit more complicated. For example. Most researchers agree male tigers in particular hunt brown bears. Not true according to other researchers. Who is right?  Kerley on brown bears and tigers: nearly anything is possible  This is Kerley weighing a brown bear:  My guess is lions, tigers and bears of near-similar size would be very close in most departments. Unpredictable for outcome. Size, all other factors equal, would be a factor to consider. An average 582-pound male Amur brown bear, for that reason, should be immune from an average 430-pound male Amur tiger. But my guess is there are tigers very close in size to an average male brown bear and brown bears also lose up to 30% of their weight in winter. Besides, the Bromlej-bear shows there are exceptions to every rule. Some Amur tigers are willing and able to confront a bear of good size. Not a giant, but a large bear. Says Vaillant. And he talked to locals. They know. Same as what I saw in captive animals. The hypothetical proposed would be a mismatch. Sumatran tigers are significantly smaller than barren ground grizzlies. An exceptional tiger might get to 350 pounds, but why risk life and limb when there's plenty of deer and pork at hand? A bear of that weight might need to take some risks at times in order to maintain his weight, but a tiger can hunt again. This is different from stating a tiger would make way. A bear overplaying his hand might face severe problems at one stage. This could be what Vaillant meant with 'principle' in tigers, bears and fights for no apparent reason in Russia. There always is a reason, but you got to look for it in order to find it.
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 10, 2013 2:37:15 GMT 5
...and your conclusion: ?
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 10, 2013 2:44:55 GMT 5
A Russian Brownie with a 150 pound weight advantage would defeat an Amur Tiger; but in case of American Grizzly vs Bengal Tiger, there is no significant weight advantage, so the Tiger would generally win.
Tigers have killed Bears larger than themselves, a typical Tigress (130 kg) killed a sow Brown Bear, who was 170 kg. Bears don't kill Tigers larger than themselves, even the Sun Bear never killed the Tiger.
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grizzly
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Post by grizzly on Jun 10, 2013 6:06:29 GMT 5
A tiger killed an *old male grizzly. Not a great accomplishment killing the elderly. And as I have mentioned before, tigers might from time to time kill a shatun bear. They are near death to begin with from starvation. And yes, a Sumatran tiger and a sun bear did indeed kill each other in a fight. My mistake, there were two incidences.
So again, the only known fight between a healthy adult male tiger and a healthy adult grizzly boar was the Amur River fight. The grizzly killed the tiger. Just the way it is.
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 10, 2013 6:30:57 GMT 5
Are you a parrot? Because you keep repeating things even after proven to be irrelevant. A Bengal Tiger is bigger and heavier than an Amur Tiger; the American Grizzly is smaller than the Russian Brown Bear. The 1943 incident has very little or no significance in this face-off, because the Bear isn't enjoying a size advantage here. Again, has there ever in history been an account of a Brown Bear beating a Tiger larger than himself? No. Tigers have beaten Grizzlies larger than themselves, but Grizzlies have beat Tigers without a size advantage. That's quite telling. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 10, 2013 6:55:01 GMT 5
A tiger killed an *old male grizzly. Not a great accomplishment killing the elderly. And as I have mentioned before, tigers might from time to time kill a shatun bear. They are near death to begin with from starvation. So again, the only known fight between a healthy adult male tiger and a healthy adult grizzly boar was the Amur River fight. The grizzly killed the tiger. Just the way it is.
*Brown Bears don't hibernate in the middle of summer.
In his letter to Mazak, Jankowski clearly stated the tiger, a few days before he was shot, had killed and eaten a large male brown bear. Because of his experience, Jankowski was able to realise the scene he encountered was most remarkable.
*Jankowski, the most reliable source on this incident, never mentioned the Bear being a shatun, ever.
2 - RELIABILITYJankowski's observation doesn't compare to observations made by modern researchers. It's a pity he didn't provide Mazak with more details or a good photograph, but Mazak thought the account was genuine. Which tells us something, because he, for the third edition of his book, would have wanted to prevent mistakes and would have made certain Jankowski was a reliable source.
In order to prevent future discussions on the bear and the tiger, it has to be stated the tiger hadn't ordered brown bear steak a la Heilongjiang in a local pub. Jankowski stated the giant tiger had killed and eaten a large male brown bear and I think he realised it had been a singular incident indeed. That's why he, 27 years after his experience, communicated on what he had seen in Heilongjiang on July 9, 1943.
— Adult male Tiger vs Adult male Brown Bear scorecard is 1-1 for as far as I'm concerned, which is quite remarkable, considering that in Amur regions, Bears generally have a good 150 pounds on Tigers. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 10, 2013 11:06:30 GMT 5
Are you a parrot? Because you keep repeating things even after proven to be irrelevant. A Bengal Tiger is bigger and heavier than an Amur Tiger; the American Grizzly is smaller than the Russian Brown Bear. The 1943 incident has very little or no significance in this face-off, because the Bear isn't enjoying a size advantage here. Again, has there ever in history been an account of a Brown Bear beating a Tiger larger than himself? No. Tigers have beaten Grizzlies larger than themselves, but Grizzlies have beat Tigers without a size advantage. That's quite telling. Grizzly bear don't live with tiger. And tiger kill bear bigger than them when they have some significant upper hand (the bears sick, old, ambushed etc). Never have I heard any cat taking out an aware bear actively fighting back. I should also note I haven't read this debate so if a account has been posted I haven't seen it. You are parroting just like Grizzly tbh. |
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