Bengal Tiger vs Grizzly Bear

[Vodmeister]

Jun 11, 2013 2:53:47 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Jun 10, 2013 23:06:04 GMT 5 Vodmeister said:

Again, the most important point is being ignored here. Russian Brown Bears have a 150 pound weight advantage over Amur Tigers (580 pounds versus 430 pounds). American Grizzlies and Bengal Tigers are about equal in size (both around 485-490 pounds).


If in history, there is only one reliable account of a Brown Bear killing an adult male Tiger in all of the historical confrontations, despite having a considerable size advantage, then how does that put the Grizzly against a Bengal Tiger?

A typical alpha male 12+ year old mountain grizzly will weigh 500+ pounds. 
In all of the historical confrontations? The Amur River fight is the *only witnessed historical confrontation in the wild.
How does that put the grizzly against a Bengal tiger. I believe that the grizzly would win such face-off encounters well above 50%. 
We can only speculate - that is my opinion. 

Again, an adult male Grizzly Bear from Mountain regions averages 490 pounds. This is a fact, +14 year old Grizzlies are normally slightly less than 500 pounds, and I've proven this. The study was done, and it's there in black and white.

Witnessed does not mean reliable. There are a lot of questions about the Amur River fight that have never been answered.

How big was the Tiger?
How big was the Bear?
Was the Tiger in his prime or elderly?
Was the Bear in his prime or elderly?
Was the Tiger healthy or sick?
Was the Bear healthy or sick?
Was the Tiger in good condition or starving?
Was the Bear in good condition or starving?

These very crucial questions were never answered in the Amur River fight. It merely stated "a boar grizzly killed a male tiger"; no details about the fight whatsoever.

[grizzly]

Jun 9, 2013 14:44:20 GMT 5 grizzly said:

From your chart on page #5...
four 12 year old bears averaging 439 pounds each. two 13 year old bears averaging 575 pounds each. two 14 year old bears averaging 514 pounds each. one 15 year old weighing 664 pounds. two 16 year olds averaging 573 pounds each. one puny 17 year old weighing 326 pounds. one 20 year old bear weighing 476 pounds. one 22 year old bear weighing 525 pounds. Total - 7,071 divided by 14 = 505 pounds. 
 
If you look at the chart, size range of the male grizzly bears 12 years and above, you will notice that among the few bears weighed were numerous 600+ pound specimens. 600 pound grizzly bears are commonplace. But, I will agree to an average of 500 pounds. 

I did the math = 505 pounds. But, with so few bears from a large population captured and weighed, it just isn't a substantial weight. Again: no study has *ever been performed to determine the average weight of adult male grizzly bears. With numerous findings of alpha male grizzly bears ranging from 600 to 900 pounds in Montana and Wyoming, I would say that the size of Russian and Japanese grizzly bears is simply standard, except for particular populations such as the much smaller barren ground grizzlies of the arctic tundra and the huge bears of coastal Alaska. 
In all honesty, a typical alpha male grizzly ( 12+ yrs ) would weigh somewhere between 500 and 600 pounds. 

[Vodmeister]

Jun 11, 2013 6:49:06 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Jun 9, 2013 14:44:20 GMT 5 grizzly said:

From your chart on page #5...
four 12 year old bears averaging 439 pounds each. two 13 year old bears averaging 575 pounds each. two 14 year old bears averaging 514 pounds each. one 15 year old weighing 664 pounds. two 16 year olds averaging 573 pounds each. one puny 17 year old weighing 326 pounds. one 20 year old bear weighing 476 pounds. one 22 year old bear weighing 525 pounds. Total - 7,071 divided by 14 = 505 pounds. 
 
If you look at the chart, size range of the male grizzly bears 12 years and above, you will notice that among the few bears weighed were numerous 600+ pound specimens. 600 pound grizzly bears are commonplace. But, I will agree to an average of 500 pounds. 

I did the math = 505 pounds. But, with so few bears from a large population captured and weighed, it just isn't a substantial weight. Again: no study has *ever been performed to determine the average weight of adult male grizzly bears. With numerous findings of alpha male grizzly bears ranging from 600 to 900 pounds in Montana and Wyoming, I would say that the size of Russian and Japanese grizzly bears is simply standard, except for particular populations such as the much smaller barren ground grizzlies of the arctic tundra and the huge bears of coastal Alaska. 
In all honesty, a typical alpha male grizzly ( 12+ yrs ) would weigh somewhere between 500 and 600 pounds. 

Again, you are living in denial.



This chart quite clearly gives the adult male >14 year old Grizzly Bear a normal size range of 320-700 pounds; and an average (see the white dot) of about 222 kg, or 490 pounds.

As for your comment about about not enough Bears being weighed.

A total of 263 Bears were weighed, 152 of which were female. That is more than enough to pull a conclusion from. Most studies done to determine the normal weight of Tigers involves a much smaller sample size.

The study is reliable and accurate, so why exactly do you have a problem with the results?

[grizzly]

Because those weights include bears below 12 years of age. It says: the heaviest bear weighed 325 kg at 17 years old. The smallest male weighed 98 kg at 10 years old. 325 kg = 716.5 pounds, an alpha male. 98 kg = 216 pounds, with a lot of growing to do. Where were the grizzlies weighing from 800 to 900 pounds? They are not mythical creatures.   
However, from past experience, you will continue to post your "little bear" spam.   
From your chart:  
From your chart on page #5...
four 12 year old bears averaging 439 pounds each. two 13 year old bears averaging 575 pounds each. two 14 year old bears averaging 514 pounds each. one 15 year old weighing 664 pounds. two 16 year olds averaging 573 pounds each. one puny 17 year old weighing 326 pounds. one 20 year old bear weighing 476 pounds. one 22 year old bear weighing 525 pounds. Total - 7,071 divided by 14 = 505 pounds.

I did the math = 505 pounds. But, with so few bears from a large population captured and weighed, it just isn't a substantial weight. Again: no study has *ever been performed to determine the average weight of adult male grizzly bears. With numerous findings of alpha male grizzly bears ranging from 600 to 900 pounds in Montana and Wyoming, I would say that the size of Russian and Japanese grizzly bears is simply standard, except for particular populations such as the much smaller barren ground grizzlies of the arctic tundra and the huge bears of coastal Alaska.
In all honesty, a typical alpha male grizzly ( 12+ yrs ) would weigh somewhere between 500 and 600 pounds, with some weighing from 350 to 450 pounds and some from 800 to 900 pounds. 

Now Vodmeister, continue with your spam and have the last word.  
  
animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2447/Grizzly-Size?page=1#.UbaqSedJPMA



  

[Vodmeister]

Adult Male Grizzly Bear weight
Age Weight (kg) Sample Size
12 - 199 - 4
13 - 261 - 2
14 - 234 - 2
15 - 302 - 1
16 - 260 - 2
17 - 148 - 1
20 - 216 - 1
22 - 238 - 1


Total average = 229.2857142857143 kg
That is 505 pounds, here you are correct.

Still, Bengal Tigers are within reasonable range of American Grizzly Bears. Most accounts give a weight range of 440-520 pounds, I will use 480 pounds as an average.

Here's just one study, note the bottom row for Tiger weights.


I don't see the Bear winning without at least a 10% weight advantage, tbh.

[grizzly]

OK - I can be agreeable with this. So since as you know I don't really put a great deal of faith in so-called average sizes, let's just skip past the average size issue. Let's just say that we have a typical 500 pound male tiger standing over a fresh kill, a doe deer which was an easy kill. The tiger is not winded. From out of the forest comes a hungry 500 pound male grizzly. How do you see this scenario working out?

[Vodmeister]

Either one of them dies, or they both die.

I've been in this debate all too often, and unless someone says something I strongly disagree with, I'll leave it at 50-50.

[grizzly]

*I can live with that  

[Life]

Jun 11, 2013 9:15:58 GMT 5 grizzly said:

Now Vodmeister, continue with your spam and have the last word.  
  
animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2447/Grizzly-Size?page=1#.UbaqSedJPMA

Be respectful to your rival debaters. Also, do not (repeatedly) mention links of other forums without my permission "during discussions" here; this forces rival debaters to open more pages then they would like to and be uncomfortable. Simply mention the information here or you can use the clause (taken from Yuku boards) if the information is not your original work. Cheers.

[Runic]

Jun 12, 2013 0:49:24 GMT 5 Vodmeister said:

Either one of them dies, or they both die.

I've been in this debate all too often, and unless someone says something I strongly disagree with, I'll leave it at 50-50.

8 pages of debate........ lol I feel proud I didn't reply.

[Grey]

I understand that the tonicity in the tiger might be decisive for its survival but I have frankly hard time to see the tiger beating an angry, somewhat armored bear weighing over 600 kg.

[creature386]

We should take the average mass of grizzly bears, which is far below 600 kg.

[theropod]

600kg grizzlies are very rare, large specimens. the average is far lower than that. Obviously, goping by maximum size, this is a big mismatch.

[creature386]

Anyway, on average the size differences are small:
theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/2473

[0ldgrizz]

It depends on the location and food availability. I searched every chart I could find and took the weights of grizzly bears only 9 years old or older, which is the age that a male grizzly is considered to be fully mature, and found that the average mature male grizzly ( summer weight ) is 500 pounds in the Yellowstone area. Note that life is not a lush paradise in Yellowstone. Those bears feed heavily on pine nuts and moths. The coastal brown bears are bigger because of their richer food supply - 800 to 1,000 pounds, and Kodiaks even bigger. The Bengal lives where meat on the hoof is not so scarce, eating good for a modern tiger, and a mature male averages roughly 445 pounds. 

So, a face-off between an inland grizzly ( all of which live in food availability-poor locations ) against the Bengal tiger ( who lives in a food-rich Asian location ) is not really a fair face-off - even though I would bet on the bear. 

In Siberia, the tiger and the black grizzly live in the same locations, and the tiger is roughly two thirds the weight of the bear. At weight parity, I would give them each a 50-50 chance. However, a mature male grizzly will normally be heavier than a mature male tiger; both living in the same location. If prey animals were more abundant in Siberia, then the tigers might be some larger, but then so would the grizzly.

There is only one species of brown bear - Ursus arctos, and zoologists are now saying that there are no true sub-species of brown bears, but only different clades of bears in different locations. All brown bears have the potential of becoming huge bears where the food stuffs are abundant. There is a black grizzly in captivity that measures nearly 5 feet tall at the shoulders ( Kodiak bear-size ) and weighs a lean 900 pounds.