|
|
Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 29, 2019 17:05:15 GMT 5
Horn s? Wasn't only one horn actually conclusively shown to be bitten by Tyrannosaurus? The same source you mention does mention seven unhealed broken Triceratops horn cores at the collection of Shenandoah University...but a lot of other things could have broken those (even post mortem damage). My bad, for some reason I thought there was another paper about that. thanks or catching that Yup. I remember asking you about the whole horn biting thing a few years back on DeviantArt, where you suggested it would be viable against an elephant (although, I also never strictly restricted it to being a defensive maneuver or a means of disabling the elephant). Although, whatever the case I think this point is kind of irrelevant against a Stegosaurus; a swinging tail is obviously going to be much faster than a neck driving a horn-mounted head upwards to stab. You mention the turning thing about Tyrannosaurus with regards to its tail as a weapon. Would this apply to all bipedal dinosaurs (thus, extending to plateosaurs, some of which seem to have very massive tails)? |
|
rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
|
Post by rock on Apr 29, 2019 17:10:01 GMT 5
My bad, for some reason I thought there was another paper about that. thanks or catching that Yup. I remember asking you about the whole horn biting thing a few years back on DeviantArt, where you suggested it would be viable against an elephant (although, I also never strictly restricted it to being a defensive maneuver or a means of disabling the elephant). Although, whatever the case I think this point is kind of irrelevant against a Stegosaurus; a swinging tail is obviously going to be much faster than a neck driving a horn-mounted head upwards to stab. You mention the turning thing about Tyrannosaurus with regards to its tail as a weapon. Would this apply to all bipedal dinosaurs (thus, extending to plateosaurs, some of which seem to have very massive tails)? who do you favor here . and can you please vote on the poll? thanks in advance |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 17:29:37 GMT 5
I think I'm siding with Infinity Blade. Disabling horns vs thagomizers are 2 very different things, and Rex likely wouldn't be up to the task before getting stabbed and wounded.
|
|
rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
|
Post by rock on Apr 29, 2019 17:32:57 GMT 5
I think I'm siding with Infinity Blade. Disabling horns vs thagomizers are 2 very different things, and Rex likely wouldn't be up to the task before getting stabbed and wounded. i doubt that would be enough to kill him though . seeing as t-rex had very rough skin to protect its self . it may hurt him but likley will not kill him |
|
|
|
Post by creature386 on Apr 29, 2019 18:43:07 GMT 5
Probably to different degrees. As Snively et al. (2019) have shown, turning ability is dependent on parameters such as mass moment of inertia and the force the legs can generate which varies widely even among theropods. It would be interesting if anyone had similar data on ilium cross-sectional area for plateosaurs. Source: Snively E, O’Brien H, Henderson DM, Mallison H, Surring LA, Burns ME, Holtz TR Jr, Russell AP, Witmer LM, Currie PJ, Hartman SA, Cotton JR. 2019. Lower rotational inertia and larger leg muscles indicate more rapid turns in tyrannosaurids than in other large theropods. PeerJ 7:e6432 This paper was the reason why I was initially tempted to favor Tyrannosaurus. It pointed out that tyrannosaurids were, at mass parity, more agile than carnosaurs due to adapting to prey items such as ceratopsians where high agility was required. But as others have pointed out, the tail of a Stegosaurus can cover much more area than the neck and head of a Triceratops. As for the question if this is face-to-face or face-to-tail, what would you guys consider a reasonable starting distance? The greater the starting distance, the less it matters, since Stegosaurus would have enough time to turn the tail. Of course, we can simple imagine several scenarios with different starting distances and different starting positions and discuss which outcome is all-in-all the most likely. who do you favor here though? It's gonna take me some time to figure out a reasonable size to use for Stegosaurus. |
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Apr 29, 2019 20:07:19 GMT 5
Really good contributions on this thread. I'm still on the fence, because like creature386, the size of the Stegosaurus is still in question.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 20:31:50 GMT 5
Was my 2nd post here from about 3 hours ago deleted? Or did I not post a 2nd time?
|
|
|
|
Post by creature386 on Apr 29, 2019 21:23:27 GMT 5
I did nothing.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 21:33:00 GMT 5
1: t rex is larger and heavier , 2: it has a stronger bite force , 3: plus t rex would have more fighting experince fighting larger animals than a stegosarus like a triceratops. t rex would also be faster and would be able to avoid stegosarus tail if its smart enough . 4: also allosarus which is much smaller than a t rex hunted stegosarus , so if allosarus take down stegosarus , i am pretty sure t rex could too . 5: now yes the stegosarus can do very good damage with its tail , but i doubt it would be enough to kill a t rex . 6: also t rex can likley crush the tail with its bite force or it can get to its neck before stegosarus can hit it with its tail . 7: also if its a head to head fight , then no it should not be facing away from the t rex it should be facing twords the t rex . to me thats giving stegosarus a unfair advantage , since this is a head to head hypthetical caged fight 1: T rex and Stegosaurus are so similar in size that a bit of size advantage to one or the other is rather irrelevant 2: That bite force is of no use if Rex can't get past that tail 3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. 4: Allosaurus fragilis has been known to hunt in packs, they likely hunted the smaller species of Stegosaurus instead of the 7-ton species being used here, and they most likely ambushed young, sick, or old Stegosaurus, just like modern predators do. Moreover, even if it hunted disadvantaged individuals in packs via ambush, it still had experience, which T rex would have lacked entirely. 5: A tail vertebra of an Allosaurus fragilis had been punctured by the thagomizer of a smaller Stegosaurus species. While the theropod did indeed survive the attack, there are some caveats with that: It's a smaller species of Stegosaurus not trying to kill its opponent, but simply deter it. That's WAY below a much bigger and stronger species of Stegosaurus actively trying to kill its opponent. Moreover, the hit was in a non-vital area, and while the Allosaurus fragilis may have survived the attack, I doubt it would have been much good at fighting immediately afterwards. That applies here as well. Immediately after T rex takes a hit, its fighting ability will vastly decrease, and Stegosaurus would keep on stabbing it until it perished. 6: Again, T rex's lack of experience is going to invalidate this. If it does go for the head, it's not going to know to watch out for the thagomizer, and it will be stabbed multiple times and sustain serious damage. Moreover, having your main weapon on your tail requires you to be a good turner, and Stegosaurus likely would've been able to keep T rex behind it. T rex also won't know to disable the tail, and even if it did, it would put itself in major trouble by coming so close to the thagomizer that it won't know to watch out for. 7: Stegosaurus may have been a good turner, but it wan't lightning fast, and if this was face to face then T rex would win practically every time. However, T rex would have a better chance at getting past the tail (it wasn't an insurmountable barrier) than Stegosaurus would of turning around in time, so yes, it really is fairer if this was face-to-tail in Stegosaurus' direction. Yeah you're right creature, my mistake. Anyway.... rock I think what I've rebutted here reinforces that each hit from that thagomizer would be absolutely devastating to T rex. |
|
leo
Junior Member
Posts: 117
|
Post by leo on Jun 25, 2019 1:49:11 GMT 5
I’m going with t-rex here , t-rex was shown to be a smart pack hunter and had a very strong bite force that can likely crush the stegosaurus , but this looks pretty close and both sides have valid arugements.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 25, 2019 2:02:36 GMT 5
t-rex was shown to be a smart pack hunter and had a very strong bite force that can likely crush the stegosaurus Not T rex itself, but other tyrannosaurs, yes. And how is intelligence relevant here? I have yet to see an argument that leads me to favor T rex |
|
leo
Junior Member
Posts: 117
|
Post by leo on Jun 25, 2019 4:56:24 GMT 5
t-rex was shown to be a smart pack hunter and had a very strong bite force that can likely crush the stegosaurus Not T rex itself, but other tyrannosaurs, yes. And how is intelligence relevant here? I have yet to see an argument that leads me to favor T rex I think t-Rex would win in a 1 v 1 fight for one evidence shows that their were multiple tail marks on allosaurus from stegosaurus likely indicating it had to hit it multiple times to kill it. Also T. rex being intelligent will help because once getting hit by stegosaurus tail he would know not to get hit again and then attack the stegosaurus vital spots like the stegosaurses neck , in nature t-rex would likely hunt stegosaurus in packs due to the risk that stegosaurus would bring with its tail. |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 25, 2019 6:31:02 GMT 5
Not T rex itself, but other tyrannosaurs, yes. And how is intelligence relevant here? I have yet to see an argument that leads me to favor T rex I think t-Rex would win in a 1 v 1 fight for one evidence shows that their were multiple tail marks on allosaurus from stegosaurus likely indicating it had to hit it multiple times to kill it. Also T. rex being intelligent will help because once getting hit by stegosaurus tail he would know not to get hit again and then attack the stegosaurus vital spots like the stegosaurses neck , in nature t-rex would likely hunt stegosaurus in packs due to the risk that stegosaurus would bring with its tail. See this post for debunking of everything: 1: T rex and Stegosaurus are so similar in size that a bit of size advantage to one or the other is rather irrelevant 2: That bite force is of no use if Rex can't get past that tail 3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. 4: Allosaurus fragilis has been known to hunt in packs, they likely hunted the smaller species of Stegosaurus instead of the 7-ton species being used here, and they most likely ambushed young, sick, or old Stegosaurus, just like modern predators do. Moreover, even if it hunted disadvantaged individuals in packs via ambush, it still had experience, which T rex would have lacked entirely. 5: A tail vertebra of an Allosaurus fragilis had been punctured by the thagomizer of a smaller Stegosaurus species. While the theropod did indeed survive the attack, there are some caveats with that: It's a smaller species of Stegosaurus not trying to kill its opponent, but simply deter it. That's WAY below a much bigger and stronger species of Stegosaurus actively trying to kill its opponent. Moreover, the hit was in a non-vital area, and while the Allosaurus fragilis may have survived the attack, I doubt it would have been much good at fighting immediately afterwards. That applies here as well. Immediately after T rex takes a hit, its fighting ability will vastly decrease, and Stegosaurus would keep on stabbing it until it perished. 6: Again, T rex's lack of experience is going to invalidate this. If it does go for the head, it's not going to know to watch out for the thagomizer, and it will be stabbed multiple times and sustain serious damage. Moreover, having your main weapon on your tail requires you to be a good turner, and Stegosaurus likely would've been able to keep T rex behind it. T rex also won't know to disable the tail, and even if it did, it would put itself in major trouble by coming so close to the thagomizer that it won't know to watch out for. 7: Stegosaurus may have been a good turner, but it wan't lightning fast, and if this was face to face then T rex would win practically every time. However, T rex would have a better chance at getting past the tail (it wasn't an insurmountable barrier) than Stegosaurus would of turning around in time, so yes, it really is fairer if this was face-to-tail in Stegosaurus' direction. Read more: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/2064/stegosaurus-rex#ixzz5rormxNsV |
|
|
|
Post by creature386 on Jun 25, 2019 14:13:35 GMT 5
3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. Do you still think T. rex wouldn't realize that "sharp & pointy things" translate to "Ouch!". Theropod went over this in more detail on page three. |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 25, 2019 17:07:02 GMT 5
3: Triceratops and Stegosaurus are 2 completely different animals, and they must be dealt with differently. I could reiterate by saying that T rex hasn't seen anything quite like a Stegosaurus and won't know about the danger of the thagomizer. Do you still think T. rex wouldn't realize that "sharp & pointy things" translate to "Ouch!". Theropod went over this in more detail on page three. Oh, I just quoted that post again for general rebut, nothing specific. It more or less has everything needed to rebut leo's arguments |
|
