Deinosuchus vs Torosaurus

[Grey]

If we assume the 5 m mark, 2,5 tons is not that low, even if it is true Forrest was conservative relative to the size. However, he was more likely right in absolute, his common highest predictions for pliosaurs were already in the 20 tons range.

But that's not the place for this...

[creature386]

2,5 t was for very large specimen, but yeah, this is the wrong place.

[Godzillasaurus]

Jun 21, 2013 0:10:07 GMT 5 gigadino96 said:

Difficult to see a Deinosuchus attacking an armored dinosaur on earth. Although this is a match up, then no attention to these details. I think Torosaurus would have won on the ground, and Deinosuchus in shallow water.

Torosaurus was armed, not armored.

But anyway, the crocodilian could potentially break the dinosaur's legs if it manages to land a good bite in that area (we are talking about a bite force of over 10 tons). The torosaurus could not really do anything with its horns, as its nasal horn was too short, stout, and blunt and its brow horns were too high an pointed upwards. The only way the ceratopsian could wound the crocodilian with its brow horns would be if it lowered its head. But even then, it seems improbable that it would be able to penetrate the deinosuchus's armor due to the fact that it needs to lower its head and thus cannot charge that way.

Oh yea, and ceratopsian beaks, although powerful, only seem to be powerful against more gracile and/or exceptionally smaller animals. Deinosuchus does not fit the bill here.

[theropod]

The horns not being able to puncture Deinosuchus' skin sounds completely unreasonable, a stab would easily have enough power for that. How practical their position would be to use them against a relatively low-slung animal is a different matter, since they evolved for being effective on very tall predators.

[creature386]

Nov 22, 2013 22:16:58 GMT 5 Godzillasaurus said:

But even then, it seems improbable that it would be able to penetrate the deinosuchus's armor due to the fact that it needs to lower its head and thus cannot charge that way.

Why would being unable to charge hinder it here? It looks like ceratopsians (or at least Triceratops) anyway didn't use their horns for charging.
You can ask Black Ice for further information.

[Godzillasaurus]

The horns not being able to puncture Deinosuchus' skin sounds completely unreasonable, a stab would easily have enough power for that.

I never said that they couldn't penetrate the crocodilian's armor, I simply said that it would be awkward given their position on the animal's head.

How practical their position would be to use them against a relatively low-slung animal is a different matter, since they evolved for being effective on very tall predators.

You sort of contradicted yourself there...

It looks like ceratopsians (or at least Triceratops) anyway didn't use their horns for charging.

Then what did they use their horns for (defense-wise)? 

[creature386]

^It looks like they locked in in intraspecific conflicts:
www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/pe/2004_1/horn/horn.pdf
Their way of fighting was compared to bovines and not to rhinos.

PS: It looks like Triceratops is quite a good analogy for Torosaurus, judging from this quote:

The observations made for Triceratops likely apply to most other chasmosaurines, particularly those with elongated postorbital horns (including Anchiceratops, Arrhinoceratops, Diceratops, Pentaceratops, and Torosaurus).

[theropod]

I never said that they couldn't penetrate the crocodilian's armor, I simply said that it would be awkward given their position on the animal's head.

no, you wrote this:

But even then, it seems improbable that it would be able to penetrate the deinosuchus's armor due to the fact that it needs to lower its head and thus cannot charge that way.

You sort of contradicted yourself there...

Nope, I didn't. It may be a bit awkward for the ceratopsian to bring its weapons to bear on a crocodilian (given the latter is both low enough to the ground and big enough to not be dispatched easily), but it certainly could, and if it could, it could also puncture the armour with those horns, that's not the problem.

[Godzillasaurus]

no, you wrote this:

What I meant to say was that it would be very difficult for the triceratops to penetrate the deinosuchus's osteoderms DUE TO IT HAVING TO LOWER ITS HEAD. Its horns would have no problem penetrating  its carapace,it is just the positioning of them that would make it awkward.

Nope, I didn't. It may be a bit awkward for the ceratopsian to bring its weapons to bear on a crocodilian (given the latter is both low enough to the ground and big enough to not be dispatched easily), but it certainly could, and if it could, it could also puncture the armour with those horns, that's not the problem.

Oh, I read your post wrong. My mistake. I thought you said that it could easily wound the crocodilian because its brow horns were adapted for dealing with taller predator, if that makes any sense.

^It looks like they locked in in intraspecific conflicts:

www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/pe/2004_1/horn/horn.pdf

Their way of fighting was compared to bovines and not to rhinos.

When I said "charged" I was not referring to running at your opponent full speed from a good distance. Instead, I was more-so talking about simple goring from a reasonable distance. Does that clear things up?

[theropod]

What I meant to say was that it would be very difficult for the triceratops to penetrate the deinosuchus's osteoderms DUE TO IT HAVING TO LOWER ITS HEAD. Its horns would have no problem penetrating  its carapace,it is just the positioning of them that would make it awkward.

Well, you may have meant that but then you phrased it the wrong way, you clearly implied it could not puncture the crocodilians skin.
"But even then, it seems improbable that it would be able to penetrate the deinosuchus's armor due to the fact that it needs to lower its head and thus cannot charge that way."

It doesn't need to charge to puncture something with its horns. In fact, as pointed out by Creature, it probably wouldn't charge anyway. It needs to drive its horns into something. This can be accomplished by simply pushing them in with the help of the neck and, if needed, slight body movements. Ramming something at full speed is certainly neither necessary nor likely, and seems to be rather the exception than the rule in the animal kingdom.

And this is a Torosaurus, not Triceratops.

Oh, I read your post wrong. My mistake. I thought you said that it could easily wound the crocodilian because its brow horns were adapted for dealing with taller predator, if that makes any sense.

What I meant was that this is certainly not the task they are most well-suited for (that would rather be a large theropod). However they are fully capable of dealing fatal injuries to a Deinosuchus, unless some new research pops up that suggests it couldn't lower its head far enough, which, given it's snout needed some degree of freedom of movement for feeding, seems highly unlikely.

When I said "charged" I was not referring to running at your opponent full speed from a good distance. Instead, I was more-so talking about simple goring from a reasonable distance. Does that clear things up?

I don't fully understand what you mean was the difference.
It is taking a run-up and running a the opponent or not? If not, why should it be unable to use that "charging" on Deinosuchus, and if yes, what's the difference?

Also, how low to the ground is Deinosuchus actually when compared to Torosaurus or Triceratops?

[Godzillasaurus]

It doesn't need to charge to puncture something with its horns. In fact, as pointed out by Creature, it probably wouldn't charge anyway. It needs to drive its horns into something. This can be accomplished by simply pushing them in with the help of the neck and, if needed, slight body movements. Ramming something at full speed is certainly neither necessary nor likely, and seems to be rather the exception than the rule in the animal kingdom.

I am aware of that. As I already said in my last post here, I didn't mean "charge" literally. It would just be awkward positioning due to the ceratopsian's horns (not including its blunt nasal horn) being above its eyes and pointing somewhat upward and the deinosuchus's low center of gravity and armored carapace. Don't get me wrong, the torosaurus's horns could surely penetrate the crocodilian's back as a whole, but it would be much easier said than done.

And this is a Torosaurus, not Triceratops.

Crap. Made ANOTHER mistake in my last post  . I will edit that.

What I meant was that this is certainly not the task they are most well-suited for (that would rather be a large theropod). However they are fully capable of dealing fatal injuries to a Deinosuchus, unless some new research pops up that suggests it couldn't lower its head far enough, which, given it's snout needed some degree of freedom of movement for feeding, seems highly unlikely.

Gotcha. You are correct about that.

I don't fully understand what you mean was the difference.
It is taking a run-up and running a the opponent or not? If not, why should it be unable to use that "charging" on Deinosuchus, and if yes, what's the difference?

I am, once again, not denying the fact that torosaurus was completely incapable of wounding its opponent here. The difference that I was talking about was that "charging" (in my mind) means making an attempt at goring your opponent from a decent distance away running full speed, whereas I was simply referring to the fact that they most likely tried goring a predator (or another member of their own species in dominance fights) by always staying a reasonable distance away from it but always facing it so that their frill/horns are foreword. Unless the torosaurus can lower its head to a considerable degree, I do not see it doing much damage to its opponent simply due to the positioning of its brow horns which are located above the animal's eyes and point upwards to a certain degree.

[creature386]

Nov 23, 2013 20:13:42 GMT 5 Godzillasaurus said:

I am, once again, not denying the fact that torosaurus was completely incapable of wounding its opponent here.

Wait, are you trying to say it is a fact that Torosaurus was completely incapable of wounding it's opponent?

[Godzillasaurus]

Nov 23, 2013 23:21:19 GMT 5 creature386 said:

Nov 23, 2013 20:13:42 GMT 5 Godzillasaurus said:

I am, once again, not denying the fact that torosaurus was completely incapable of wounding its opponent here.

Wait, are you trying to say it is a fact that Torosaurus was completely incapable of wounding it's opponent?

 I made yet another mistake in my post. Damn, I need to watch out for those better. I'm sorry about that. I meant to say that that I am not denying the fact that torosaurus brow horns were more than capable of penetrating the alligatoroid's carapace.

[theropod]

Torosaurus' horns do not point upwards:


In fact that whole "pointing upwards"-story only ssems to apply to subadult ceratopsians.

How does a low center of gravity make an animal less prone to being speared?

The difference that I was talking about was that "charging" (in my mind)
means making an attempt at goring your opponent from a decent distance
away running full speed, whereas I was simply referring to the fact that
they most likely tried goring a predator (or another member of their
own species in dominance fights) by always staying a reasonable distance
away from it but always facing it so that their frill/horns are
foreword.

So in other words, by your own definition when you said charging, you didn't mean charging?

How is an animal supposed to gore another animal while "always staying a reasonable distance
away from it"?  And how does "always facing it" interfere with lowering the head a bit to attack something that's relatively low-slung?

Unless the torosaurus can lower its head to a considerable degree,

I do not see how it shouldn't be capable of lowering its head somewhat. Besides, Deinosuchus is not exactly as low to the ground as Lacerta agilis, it would still constitute a pretty big target area...

[Godzillasaurus]

Nov 24, 2013 2:47:26 GMT 5 theropod said:

Torosaurus' horns do not point upwards:


In fact that whole "pointing upwards"-story only ssems to apply to subadult ceratopsians.

How does a low center of gravity make an animal less prone to being speared?

The difference that I was talking about was that "charging" (in my mind)
means making an attempt at goring your opponent from a decent distance
away running full speed, whereas I was simply referring to the fact that
they most likely tried goring a predator (or another member of their
own species in dominance fights) by always staying a reasonable distance
away from it but always facing it so that their frill/horns are
foreword.

So in other words, by your own definition when you said charging, you didn't mean charging?

How is an animal supposed to gore another animal while "always staying a reasonable distance
away from it"?  And how does "always facing it" interfere with lowering the head a bit to attack something that's relatively low-slung?

Unless the torosaurus can lower its head to a considerable degree,

I do not see how it shouldn't be capable of lowering its head somewhat. Besides, Deinosuchus is not exactly as low to the ground as Lacerta agilis, it would still constitute a pretty big target area...

Pointing upwards =/= being completely vertical. Especially in torosaurus and triceratops, the brow horns clearly point upwards from the positioning of eyes. In life, ceratopsians likely positioned their heads slightly downward, which is just the reason why their horns would have to point diagonally upwards from the eyes. Torosaurus and triceratops horns were more likely somewhat diagonal as opposed to horizontal.

And a low center of gravity does not make an animal immune to being impaled, but it does provide an advantage, as the brow horns of torosaurus were adapted as defense against taller predators.