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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 3:17:07 GMT 5
The debate was if it's jaws would allow to catch enough tissue. I know that it couldn't do that with Megalania. If it cannot preform the action that allowed it to grab enough tissue on the crocodile to megalania then the method you showed has no relevance in the debate. Whether it cant do it because of jaw morphology or because it cannot preform the action because of megalania's morphology and physical capabilities it makes no difference, it's still incapable. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 4:51:44 GMT 5
I believe the crocodile would have it easier to kill it's opponent at parity, with a bite. Not at all. crocs struggle to kill similar sized prey. Similarly sized? I know they di with bigger prey but I've never seen a crocodile have trouble killing a zebra or similar that is it's size. As for the damage a crocs jaws can do, well combine jaws that crush turtle shells like cookies with a death roll and the product is pretty obvious. And varanids as I know don't dance around their opponents. They attack them by bull rushing them etc. I don't think a crocodile catching megalania will be any problem at all because the lizard is gonna charge the crocodile anyways. I know varanids can cut through tight skin like paper but armoured scutes are an entirely different ball game. IMO the most damage a lizard bite (even if larger) could do to an armored animal like a croc would be a few flesh wounds and scratched scutes and if I dont recall aren't crocodile immune to envenomation or something like that? Note: most of this post isn't aimed at the quote from coherent. Edit: Interesting video m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=escO6HBtKBI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DescO6HBtKBIOne of the crocodile got decapitated. |
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Post by DinosaurMichael on Jun 30, 2013 5:21:21 GMT 5
On land Megalania has high mobility and stamina advantage and even though the crocs armour will reduce the damage done by megalania's bite I feel it will still be able to do enough damage to cause a fair amount of blood loss. If I can recall. Crocodiles can close their veins preventing blood loss. So I don't think that will be an issue. That's the reason why Crocodiles can still continue on with their lives with a part of their snout missing, very serious wounds, and even missing limbs. (When I was in Costa Rica. I went on this river tour, where there were American Crocodiles and the biggest one I saw there was 12 feet and it had a piece of it's snout missing. According to the Tour Guide. It lost it to a fight it had with a another American Crocodile, which it killed again according to the Tour Guide.) And for those saying the Megalania's venom might help. It won't. If I can also recall. Crocodiles have very strong immune systems and are immune to venom. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 5:56:11 GMT 5
On land Megalania has high mobility and stamina advantage and even though the crocs armour will reduce the damage done by megalania's bite I feel it will still be able to do enough damage to cause a fair amount of blood loss. If I can recall. Crocodiles can close their veins preventing blood loss. So I don't think that will be an issue. That's the reason why Crocodiles can still continue on with their lives with missing snouts, very serious wounds, and even missing limbs. And for those saying the Megalania's venom might help. It won't. If I can also recall. Crocodiles have very strong immune systems and are immune to venom. any source for crocodiles being immune to any venom? There immune system is very good and it may help them resist the venom's affects but I wont just casually accept complete immunity based solely on the fact they have strong immune systems. As for the bloodloss thing even if bloodloss is reduced I doubt its ability to completely stop it and its unlikely that megalania will bite only once and theb give up when it doest die from the first bite. |
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Post by DinosaurMichael on Jun 30, 2013 6:01:15 GMT 5
If I can recall. Crocodiles can close their veins preventing blood loss. So I don't think that will be an issue. That's the reason why Crocodiles can still continue on with their lives with missing snouts, very serious wounds, and even missing limbs. And for those saying the Megalania's venom might help. It won't. If I can also recall. Crocodiles have very strong immune systems and are immune to venom. any source for crocodiles being immune to any venom? There immune system is very good and it may help them resist the venom's affects but I wont just casually accept complete immunity based solely on the fact they have strong immune systems. As for the bloodloss thing even if bloodloss is reduced I doubt its ability to completely stop it and its unlikely that megalania will bite only once and theb give up when it doest die from the first bite. According to some people. They said Crocodiles are. Then again I might of misunderstood. No that's what I heard. It stops bloodloss. But it's possible I could be wrong. Still though in the fight. Being able to close it's veins and stopping bloodloss. That would help the Crocodile. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 6:31:54 GMT 5
If megalania bites the crocodile it's gonna get bitten back. If it's on the head or neck area something like this will happen m.youtube.com/watch?v=3X45Fbss0TkThe venom won't really affect the crocodile so much due to their slow metabolisms as well. I Infer Varanid Venom is mainly suited for mammal |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 6:59:09 GMT 5
If megalania bites the crocodile it's gonna get bitten back. If it's on the head or neck area something like this will happen m.youtube.com/watch?v=3X45Fbss0TkThe venom won't really affect the crocodile so much due to their slow metabolisms as well. I Infer Varanid Venom is mainly suited for mammal Its long and of poor quality but I will save you the time of watching, its a video of a much larger crocodile spending almost an hour trying to kill a nile monitor. Most of its body is in the crocs jaws for almost an hour and it can still hold its breath just as long as the crocodile trying to drown it. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 7:50:51 GMT 5
If megalania bites the crocodile it's gonna get bitten back. If it's on the head or neck area something like this will happen m.youtube.com/watch?v=3X45Fbss0TkThe venom won't really affect the crocodile so much due to their slow metabolisms as well. I Infer Varanid Venom is mainly suited for mammal Its long and of poor quality but I will save you the time of watching, its a video of a much larger crocodile spending almost an hour trying to kill a nile monitor. Most of its body is in the crocs jaws for almost an hour and it can still hold its breath just as long as the crocodile trying to drown it. Flukes aren't really relevant here unless you think monitor lizard survive attacks from much larger crocs in that way on a daily basis? Repeat an encounter like that 100 times and more often then not one bite would crush the lizard like that croc did to that turtle. Kinda reminds me of that freak account of a honey badger surviving an hour of being suffocated by a much larger leopard. Tho if I may ask how do you see Megalania killing an armored animal when there's no recorded cases of even modern varanids tackling well armed and armored animal? They seem not to tackle them for a reason (I understand this is kinda flawed as most animal are bigger than varanids) |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 8:19:15 GMT 5
Its long and of poor quality but I will save you the time of watching, its a video of a much larger crocodile spending almost an hour trying to kill a nile monitor. Most of its body is in the crocs jaws for almost an hour and it can still hold its breath just as long as the crocodile trying to drown it. Flukes aren't really relevant here unless you think monitor lizard survive attacks from much larger crocs in that way on a daily basis? Repeat an encounter like that 100 times and more often then not one bite would crush the lizard like that croc did to that turtle. Kinda reminds me of that freak account of a honey badger surviving an hour of being suffocated by a much larger leopard. Tho if I may ask how do you see Megalania killing an armored animal when there's no recorded cases of even modern varanids tackling well armed and armored animal? They seem not to tackle them for a reason (I understand this is kinda flawed as most animal are bigger than varanids) komodo dragons kill eachother in intra specific conflict, thats a large well armed and well armoured opponent being killed by a modern varanid. If only crocidiles still had a presence on the islands where komodo dragons do, it could produce relevent information for this thread. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 8:31:49 GMT 5
Oh and if it was a fluke you should easily be able to find an account were events happened very differently, shouldnt you? Instead of me producing a second near Identical account were the croc required thrashing head movment and nearly all of it stamina to kill the much smaller varanid. Face it varanids are tough as nails and do a better job of surviving croc bites than crunchy turtles. budak.blogs.com/the_annotated_budak/2011/01/a-lizards-last-moments.html |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 8:51:13 GMT 5
Oh and if it was a fluke you should easily be able to find an account were events happened very differently, shouldnt you? Instead of me producing a second near Identical account were the croc required thrashing head movment and nearly all of it stamina to kill the much smaller varanid. Face it varanids are tough as nails and do a better job of surviving croc bites than crunchy turtles. budak.blogs.com/the_annotated_budak/2011/01/a-lizards-last-moments.html-__- birds and honey badger have killed monitor lizard in under a minute before, by your logic of varanid surviving croc bites, the above should never happen correct because of a few flukes? Monitor lizard now have titanium skin specifically designed to withstand 5, 000lbs of pressure yet not stab wounds from a birds talons. <what? And any way why would a large crocodile regularly waste time and energy pursuing a small monitor lizard when the cost of energy used to get one far outways the benefits? A croc would attack something large enough to sustain it before it attacks some fleet footed varanid weighing less than 10lbs. Also you seriously think a lizards hide is tougher than the turtle shells crocodile crush like cookies just cause there are freak accounts of them surviving croc bites? Humans have survived tiger maulings and managed to walk for hours on end before reaching civilization. Does that mean the same human will brush off an attack from a much smaller leopard? And as for your (which i heavily expected as a comeback) why dont i show evidence of it hapoening frequently. That's like me asking why don't tiger hunt elephant more often since there's a fluke of then doing so. I could post birds surviving hits from 18 wheelers when in reality more often than not they are killed from the hit, does that mean birds have a better chance of surviving a hit from a truck than a same sized monitor? Flukes are flukes, period, the few accounts you find of a miraculous incident pales in comparison to what normally will happen. It's redundant and irrelevant when truth is on average a much larger crocodile will crush a lizard in one bite like they do turtles. And varanids are not on the same level as crocs when it comes to defense. So I ask again, how do you see megalania killing the crocodile? I want a real reason as well and not some last resort reply using freak incidents as a crutch. Otherwise I might as well say since crocodile can survive getting shot with full clips from M14s that a megalania bite would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on crocodile armor correct? |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 9:16:40 GMT 5
Just for the hell of it, m.upi.com/story/UPI-40661304533848/^ the gator wasn't even big. Are monitor lizard now tougher than car bumpers now because they have defied death and escaped in better condition than car bumpers on rare occasion? |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 10:10:10 GMT 5
Oh and if it was a fluke you should easily be able to find an account were events happened very differently, shouldnt you? Instead of me producing a second near Identical account were the croc required thrashing head movment and nearly all of it stamina to kill the much smaller varanid. Face it varanids are tough as nails and do a better job of surviving croc bites than crunchy turtles. budak.blogs.com/the_annotated_budak/2011/01/a-lizards-last-moments.html-__- birds and honey badger have killed monitor lizard in under a minute before, by your logic of varanid surviving croc bites, the above should never happen correct because of a few flukes? Monitor lizard now have titanium skin specifically designed to withstand 5, 000lbs of pressure yet not stab wounds from a birds talons. <what? And any way why would a large crocodile regularly waste time and energy pursuing a small monitor lizard when the cost of energy used to get one far outways the benefits? A croc would attack something large enough to sustain it before it attacks some fleet footed varanid weighing less than 10lbs. Also you seriously think a lizards hide is tougher than the turtle shells crocodile crush like cookies just cause there are freak accounts of them surviving croc bites? Humans have survived tiger maulings and managed to walk for hours on end before reaching civilization. Does that mean the same human will brush off an attack from a much smaller leopard? And as for your (which i heavily expected as a comeback) why dont i show evidence of it hapoening frequently. That's like me asking why don't tiger hunt elephant more often since there's a fluke of then doing so. I could post birds surviving hits from 18 wheelers when in reality more often than not they are killed from the hit, does that mean birds have a better chance of surviving a hit from a truck than a same sized monitor? Flukes are flukes, period, the few accounts you find of a miraculous incident pales in comparison to what normally will happen. It's redundant and irrelevant when truth is on average a much larger crocodile will crush a lizard in one bite like they do turtles. And varanids are not on the same level as crocs when it comes to defense. So I ask again, how do you see megalania killing the crocodile? I want a real reason as well and not some last resort reply using freak incidents as a crutch. Otherwise I might as well say since crocodile can survive getting shot with full clips from M14s that a megalania bite would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on crocodile armor correct? Turtles are so easily killed by the crocs because their shells are so hard, they have less give to them than the body of a varanid, the lizards were by no means unscathed and both died (I never said they survived either just that they were better suited to surviving a bite from a croc than a turtle) but they were capable of widthstanding the force of the bite and still surviving for awhile. Your examples of the honey badger and birds of prey are irrelivant as I have never seen either of them killing a monitor lizard by trying to crush its body, they seem to attack the head, which niether of the crocs did. A crocodile survived getting shot many times impressive indeed,it is a true stroke of luck on the crocs part and lack of aiming skill on part of the people, as it wasnt shot in the brain or heart. If you dont want to except my account and denounce them as flukes go ahead but if very incredible members of much much smaller varanid species can survive that long then it shouldnt be that big of a deal for varanid the same size as the croc to survive the exact same attack. Dogs can do pretty bad damage to bumpers too, its not impressive. You didnt ask for me to produce an account of a varanid killing a crocodile just a heavily armed and armoured species and the ora fits that bill. The ora has very extensive armour you say it isnt in the same league as a crocs, well its pretty close and is close as your going to get. I personally dont see a reason why a megalania couldnt do damage to a crocodile. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 30, 2013 10:28:43 GMT 5
^ a turtle shell is leagues above varanid and even crocodile armor in terms of durability. Also martial eagle have been known to repeatedly stab the body (not the head) of varanids after using RPR. But since we are using flukes then why did the blind and old honey badger take an hour to be killed by a much larger healthy leopard? Why don't birds survive car crashes more often? Why aren't crocodile classified as near bulletproof based off a few flukes? You started the whole argument by posting that irrelevant to my point video of a monitor surviving (initially) a crocodile bite when I specifically stated bite + death roll. Even then a bite alone would be sufficient alone to control a weaker less durable varanids yet at the same time causing damage. Also dogs don't heavily damage car bumpers in one bite, alligators have. That is infact impressive, I would continue but it seems you didn't get the point of me posting the video firsthand. The weaponry of monitor lizard are obviously ill suited to tackling animal with scutes (which are tougher than scales) and bony parts. Honestly unless the lizard has some tiger shark mechanism in it's jaws there is really no way one could mortally harm a crocodile short of biting the less armored leg or something. Edit: I never technically demanded or even asked for evidence of varanids killing armored animal (it should be noted monitor lizard are not armored). But then again crocodile are leagues above any lizard in the defense department as they have reinforced and dense bones, are significantly more robust and heavyset (which is why they are heavier than varanids by a good margin at equal dimensions) and a skull region with basically zero soft spots to attack (the entire head is just bone) unlike the thin spacious skull of varanids. The only weak spots a cutting object could get through is the base of the neck or the legs. I wonder if the varanid even has enough bite force drive those teeth at least partially into the crocodiles armor! Hell it takes a while even for chainsaws to saw through croc skulls. The defense of the crocodile > offense of megalania. I'm not saying the lizard has zero chance but even a larger megalania would have it tough with a tank like a crocodile. Honestly I see the reptile chain like this At weight parity Crocodile/Gator/Caiman >/= Constrictors (whoever attacks first basically wins though crocs have a better record Constrictors> Varanids as varanids have bodies perfect for constriction. I'm not underrating ora believe me (I'd favor a komodo dragon over a wolf, cougar, and leopard at parity however i wouldnt say the same for a python). Reptiles are like insects, they have such vastly different ways to kill things moreso than mammals that some are just by natural selection superior to others in combat. Note: Hope I don't sound like a arrogant b*tch lol, most people think I'm over here pmsing when I post in this tone when I'm not -__- lmao I'm not a female........ at least I hope not  ........ Edit: <<<< holy crap this forum has emoticons?  WHEN??? -_-    ^o) Damn only 3 of em worked -_- < dammit. We need a facepalm emoticon. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 11:12:52 GMT 5
^ a turtle shell is leagues above varanid and even crocodile armor in terms of durability. Also martial eagle have been known to repeatedly stab the body (not the head) of varanids after using RPR. But since we are using flukes then why did the blind and old honey badger take an hour to be killed by a much larger healthy leopard? Why don't birds survive car crashes more often? Why aren't crocodile classified as near bulletproof based off a few flukes? You started the whole argument by posting that irrelevant to my point video of a monitor surviving (initially) a crocodile bite when I specifically stated bite + death roll. Even then a bite alone would be sufficient alone to control a weaker less durable varanids yet at the same time causing damage. Also dogs don't heavily damage car bumpers in one bite, I would continue but it seems you didn't get the point of me posting the video firsthand. The weaponry of monitor lizard are obviously ill suited to tackling animal with scutes (which are tougher than scales) and bony parts. Honestly unless the lizard has some tiger shark mechanism in it's jaws there is really no way one coukd mortally harm a crocodile short of biting the less armored leg or something. Edit: I never technically demanded or even asked for evidence of varanids killing armored animal (it should be noted monitor lizard are not armored). But then again crocodile are leages above any lizard as they have reinforced and dense bones, a skull region with basically zero soft spots to attack (the entire head is just bone). The only weak spotsa cutting object coukd get through is the base of the neck or the limbs. Hell it takes a while even for chainsaws to saw through croc skulls. The defense of the crocodile > offense of megalania. I'm not saying the lizard has zero chance but even a larger megalania would have it tough with a tank like a crocodile. monitor lizards are not armoured? Really? Scales are armour in themselves but even beyond that monitor lizards have osteoderms if thats not armour what is? I never said that turtle shells are inferior armour in general just that they dont have much give in thier armour so it doesnt do well against the crushing bite of a croc any given armour is rarely superior to another in all ways. The monitors body doesnt get crushed into oblivion like a turtle shell because its softer, this is frankly better when it comes to surviving a bite from a larger croc, think of it like an egg and an apple of the same size, if I hit both with a bat the apple will probably be more intact than the egg but only a fool would say an apple is better protected than an egg, I was never saying varanids are better armoured than turtle just that they are better in this given scenario. www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D9f_ySvkA&feature=youtube_gdata_playerthat looks pretty destroyed to me. Breaking a bumper isnt that impressive. Say crocs are leagues above any lizard in the defense deparment can also be debated but its pointless here as it would be a varanid (still impressively armoured despite what you claim). Fun fact did you know even though they are less famous for the action monitors lizard also will death roll under the correct conditions (i have only seen it in one or two species however) The raptors method of killing a varanid is still not crushing its body so again irrelvant. Look at megalania's skull there is simply no way it cant damage the crocodile. You its not like the monitor will dance around the croc and it wont but its not gonna stupidly barrel into it like you suggested either it will not have given its mobility advantage it could simply walk circles around it and attack the the part that isnt snapping at it, varanids being the smartest extant reptiles, im sure megalania is capable of this. Ora dont seem to attack blatantly dangerous areas of animals, tge closest ive seen one do to that is attack the face of a very weakened buffalo. |
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........ Edit: <<<< holy crap this forum has emoticons?
WHEN??? -_- 
^o)