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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 11:16:13 GMT 5
Sorry if it is kind hard to read I am currenty incapable of editing it :/
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Post by creature386 on Jun 30, 2013 13:41:47 GMT 5
The debate was if it's jaws would allow to catch enough tissue. I know that it couldn't do that with Megalania. If it cannot preform the action that allowed it to grab enough tissue on the crocodile to megalania then the method you showed has no relevance in the debate. Whether it cant do it because of jaw morphology or because it cannot preform the action because of megalania's morphology and physical capabilities it makes no difference, it's still incapable. Well, it could maybe do so, if it is able to tear off a leg of Megalania (that would be hard, but in some cases it may be able to do so), than it's agility advantage would be gone and it could maybe get a bite on the torso (although it couldn't bite the back). |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Jun 30, 2013 13:59:42 GMT 5
If it cannot preform the action that allowed it to grab enough tissue on the crocodile to megalania then the method you showed has no relevance in the debate. Whether it cant do it because of jaw morphology or because it cannot preform the action because of megalania's morphology and physical capabilities it makes no difference, it's still incapable. Well, it could maybe do so, if it is able to tear off a leg of Megalania (that would be hard, but in some cases it may be able to do so), than it's agility advantage would be gone and it could maybe get a bite on the torso (although it couldn't bite the back). thats true. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 30, 2013 14:52:50 GMT 5
50/50 for now
The monitor's weapons may not be ideal for this fight. Nevertheless they will be deadly if it severs the carotids (closing the carotis artery is not an option obviously) some tendons, and a pull bite from a creature the size of V. priscus will do serious damage in most areas. A strong immune system may help with the venom, but it will hardly completely counteract it. The crocodiles extreme durability is very helpful here, but it doesn't make it immune to everything.
On the other hand, the croc also has to fight an armoured opponent, and while it has a stronger bite force it will struggle to land a bite because of its opponents agility and girth. It needs to find some part to crush, eg. a limb or the skull.
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 30, 2013 15:19:57 GMT 5
50/50 for now The monitor's weapons may not be ideal for this fight. Nevertheless they will be deadly if it severs the carotids (closing the carotis artery is not an option obviously) some tendons, and a pull bite from a creature the size of V. priscus will do serious damage in most areas. A strong immune system may help with the venom, but it will hardly completely counteract it. The crocodiles extreme durability is very helpful here, but it doesn't make it immune to everything. On the other hand, the croc also has to fight an armoured opponent, and while it has a stronger bite force it will struggle to land a bite because of its opponents agility and girth. It needs to find some part to crush, eg. a limb or the skull. Re stronger bite force: Citation pretty much needed. Megalanias skull is more robust and les kinetic than most modern monitor lizard skulls. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 30, 2013 15:23:55 GMT 5
I was talking about parity, and adductor force.
With a size advantage megalania takes this tough. And looking at its teeth, they seem to have the size and robust shape needed to damage even an osteoderm-armoured croc.
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 30, 2013 15:27:38 GMT 5
I was talking about parity, and adductor force. With a size advantage megalania takes this tough. And looking at its teeth, they seem to have the size and robust shape needed to damage even an osteoderm-armoured croc. I was also talking about abductor force and parity. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 30, 2013 15:35:03 GMT 5
Well, we don't have any estimates for the force of adductor driven bites in megalania, but unless it is much stronger than in komodo dragons, crocodiles bite harder at parity. Do you think Megalania specialized towards delivering a crushing bite?
Modern macrophagous varanids don't seem to do so, do they?
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 30, 2013 15:46:32 GMT 5
Well, we don't have any estimates for the force of adductor driven bites in megalania, but unless it is much stronger than in komodo dragons, crocodiles bite harder at parity. Do you think Megalania specialized towards delivering a crushing bite? Modern macrophagous varanids don't seem to do so, do they? No they don't but the skull of Megalania seems somewhat different than komodo dagon skulls according to Molnar with adaptations towards higher bite force. I think lizards with adaptations to hig bite forces bite harder than crocodiles, at least Tupninambis merianae does in large males. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 30, 2013 16:16:04 GMT 5
Could that have to do with the square-cube-law?
And do you think Megalania shows the same degree of adaptions towards bite force? Seems a bit strange considering it is a relatively close relative of the komodo dragon, which is among the most effective slicers on the planet. The tought that another , similar varanid with similar lifestyle would be adapted for the exact opposite killing style seems strange to me. That should require big differences in the dentition among other things, not?
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Post by theropod on Jun 30, 2013 16:18:11 GMT 5
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jul 1, 2013 5:00:55 GMT 5
Sure they are not perfect analogies. Nevertheless you made a claim for higher bite force in crocs. I doubted it . Ihave no fleshed out position on Megalania bite force. As an aside some monitor species have remarkably reinforced skulls as well:  For now it is best to avoid generalisations. |
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Post by theropod on Jul 1, 2013 17:33:05 GMT 5
But very likely Megalania is closer to macrophagous, slicing species, like V. komodoensis. We have no evidence for any specialization in bite force comparable to Crocodilians or some squamates. therefore it is at least likely at parity the adductor mandibularis of the crocodile would excert the higher forces
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jul 1, 2013 17:35:57 GMT 5
But very likely Megalania is closer to macrophagous, slicing species, like V. komodoensis. We have no evidence for any specialization in bite force comparable to Crocodilians or some squamates. therefore it is at least likely at parity the adductor mandibularis of the crocodile would excert the higher forces We ave no evidence either way. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 3:52:06 GMT 5
Crocodile wins this one by a little.
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