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Post by creature386 on Jun 21, 2019 18:03:59 GMT 5
Are there any more concise rebuttals to him? Because I don't have 80 minutes to spare.
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 21, 2019 18:24:17 GMT 5
Are there any more concise rebuttals to him? Because I don't have 80 minutes to spare. nope thats it |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 22, 2019 23:17:29 GMT 5
Mic decided to pick on Kurzgesagt (and to give them the name "Cracksgesagt" which he pronounced hilariously at 13:25).
Em, what can I say.
There were some good points like how Kurzgesagt forgot all the micro plastics and other pollution we consume when eating fish or how they forgot that vitamin C can make plant iron more digestible for us.
However, the main arguments that Kurzgesagt didn't cite their sources (which they did in a google file in the description) and that they're biased are hilarious. Unlike Mic, Kurzgesagt did not only cite studies in favor of one particular view and I can't take anyone seriously who claims that there's a clear scientific consensus that veganism is the best. I've read enough contradicting studies to see that Mic's are cherry-picked. The point that decreased circulatory diseases in Norway during Nazi occupation were due to veganism was especially ludicrous. That had more to do with food rationing than a shift to veganism (which by the way did not happen - even if Nazis took the livestock, people still got meat over the black market).
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 22, 2019 23:39:20 GMT 5
Mic decided to pick on Kurzgesagt (and to give them the name "Cracksgesagt" which he pronounced hilariously at 13:25). Em, what can I say. There were some good points like how Kurzgesagt forgot all the micro plastics and other pollution we consume when eating fish or how they forgot that vitamin C can make plant iron more digestible for us. However, the main arguments that Kurzgesagt didn't cite their sources (which they did in a google file in the description) and that they're biased are hilarious. Unlike Mic, Kurzgesagt did not only cite studies in favor of one particular view and I can't take anyone seriously who claims that there's a clear scientific consensus that veganism is the best. I've read enough contradicting studies to see that Mic's are cherry-picked. The point that decreased circulatory diseases in Norway during Nazi occupation were due to veganism was especially ludicrous. That had more to do with food rationing than a shift to veganism (which by the way did not happen - even if Nazis took the livestock, people still got meat over the black market). he of a nutcase besides the point that he uses evidance from doctors and dietations not scientists who know about biology and study it and not from credible sources like natonial geographic BBC EARTH and smithosonian channel. also besides that , here is a few scientific sources he choses to ignore that show veganism is not healthy www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarianwww.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiencyalso he likes to lie about our PH level saying that our PH level is 4-5 like other herbivores when it is really 1.5-3.5 like other omnivores . |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 22, 2019 23:43:50 GMT 5
Doctors and dietitians are far from bad sources (particularly because some of them do actually publish papers), but I'm sure he's cherry-picking a lot.
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 22, 2019 23:46:30 GMT 5
Doctors and dietitians are far from bad sources (particularly because some of them do actually publish papers), but I'm sure he's cherry-picking a lot. they are not bad sources but they should stay in their own job as they are not scientists and do not have a PHD in science or biology , so they have as much as thumb to say meat is unhealthy as if me or you said it IMO , also his claws arugement does not work because the largest claws belong to a herbivore. |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 22, 2019 23:52:53 GMT 5
While an MD is different from a PhD, they still learn a lot of biological science in their curricula. I have seen papers with MDs among the authors.
Even disregarding that, you don't become a doctor or dietician if you don't learn everything relevant biologists discovered about health. Biologists discover it, doctors and dietitians apply it, all three have very high knowledge about it.
A dietitian's job is literally to offer advice on what foods are healthy and what not, so what does "staying in their job" even mean.
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 22, 2019 23:55:58 GMT 5
While an MD is different from a PhD, they still learn a lot of biological science in their curricula. I have seen papers with MDs among the authors. Even disregarding that, you don't become a doctor or dietician if you don't learn everything relevant biologists discovered about health. Biologists discover it, doctors and dietitians apply it, all three have very high knowledge about it. A dietitian's job is literally to offer advice on what foods are healthy and what not, so what does "staying in their job" even mean. staying in their job means that altough they learn about biology , they do not study it daily , they are not scientists , high school kids learn about biology and have to take regents on it but i am sure you would not say that a high school kid is a credible source for information |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 23, 2019 0:07:06 GMT 5
Then why do you have to get specialized training at all to give someone advice about nurtition? Why don't they just hire high school kids?
I'm not sure what makes you elevate scientists on such a podium beyond anyone else. I mean, you even do this when there is no methodology (e.g. actual studying) involved because their research skills are just that good (apparently, doctors don't know how to read scientific literature for some reason).
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 23, 2019 0:17:53 GMT 5
Then why do you have to get specialized training at all to give someone advice about nurtition? Why don't they just hire high school kids? I'm not sure what makes you elevate scientists on such a podium beyond anyone else. I mean, you even do this when there is no methodology (e.g. actual studying) involved because their research skills are just that good (apparently, doctors don't know how to read scientific literature for some reason). doctors are good in their profession and scientists are good in their profession , it is kinda like a scientists giving you medicine , he is a scientist not a doctor two different jobs , it is like having a baseball player play in a basketball game , they are both sports and have basic traning like jumping and running , but they are from two seprate sports. |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 23, 2019 0:20:14 GMT 5
Then why do you have to get specialized training at all to give someone advice about nurtition? Why don't they just hire high school kids? I'm not sure what makes you elevate scientists on such a podium beyond anyone else. I mean, you even do this when there is no methodology (e.g. actual studying) involved because their research skills are just that good (apparently, doctors don't know how to read scientific literature for some reason). doctors are good in their profession and scientists are good in their profession , it is kinda like a scientists giving you medicine , he is a scientist not a doctor two different jobs , it is like having a baseball player play in a basketball game , they are both sports and have basic traning like jumping and running , but they are from two seprate sports. |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 23, 2019 1:07:16 GMT 5
The thing is though, telling you which foods are healthy and which not is basically a dietitian's entire job.
If we had a conflict between the author of a meta-analysis on veganism and a dietician, I'd pick the former any day, sure. But while dietitians might not be the best of the best sources, using the fact that Mic cites them against him is nitpicking. I mean, we on this forum also use pop science articles as sources, even though they are inferior to actual scientific studies and I don't think this ruins our credibility.
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Post by theropod on Jun 23, 2019 1:38:57 GMT 5
Medicine is a science. Period. Medical doctors usually work outside of academia and may not do much research work, they are fully qualified in their field, which is looking after human health. That also applies to dietitians, dietary science is a science, and of course dietitians are scientists, even if they pursue careers outside of academia. Both are highly qualified to give you dietary advice, more so than most biologists. They might not be qualified to do evolutionary biology, but the questions of whether veganism is healthy and whether humans are herbivores¹ don’t require a background in evolutionary biology. Now of course any scientist, whether they are a doctor or a biologist by training, can still be just as wrong or biased about something (there are certainly trained doctors out there purporting wrong information in support of their own ideology, just as there are biologists who do the same). While a trained professional will of course be on average more reliable than any random person, their status is no replacement for looking at what they did to arrive at their conclusion. rock: There is a huge and profound difference between years of courses at a university and what passes for a biology class at a high school. I hope you realize that. ¹And no, of course humans aren’t herbivores, the simple fact that we don’t get an adequate supply of vitamin B12 from plants is pretty unequivocal evidence of that. The simplest test of whether something is a herbivore is to make the (thought-) experiment of what happens if you put it on an exclusively plant-based diet, which fails spectacularly with humans even assuming otherwise ideal circumstances (varied and high-quality plant matter available year-round, in large amounts), unless we use synthetic dietary supplements. |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 23, 2019 1:52:15 GMT 5
¹And no, of course humans aren’t herbivores, the simple fact that we don’t get an adequate supply of vitamin B12 from plants is pretty unequivocal evidence of that. The simplest test of whether something is a herbivore is to make the (thought-) experiment of what happens if you put it on an exclusively plant-based diet, which fails spectacularly with humans even assuming otherwise ideal circumstances (varied and high-quality plant matter available year-round, in large amounts), unless we use synthetic dietary supplements. Mic thinks that this is a consequence of modern hygiene and that we would get enough vitamin B12 if we didn't wash all the dirt and its bacteria off. While I have not found contrary evidence to this (but to be honest, I only ever hear this from vegans), the lack of purely vegan populations (plenty of which probably eat/ate enough dirt) makes me suspicious. |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 23, 2019 5:39:40 GMT 5
Medicine is a science. Period. Medical doctors usually work outside of academia and may not do much research work, they are fully qualified in their field, which is looking after human health. That also applies to dietitians, dietary science is a science, and of course dietitians are scientists, even if they pursue careers outside of academia. Both are highly qualified to give you dietary advice, more so than most biologists. They might not be qualified to do evolutionary biology, but the questions of whether veganism is healthy and whether humans are herbivores¹ don’t require a background in evolutionary biology. Now of course any scientist, whether they are a doctor or a biologist by training, can still be just as wrong or biased about something (there are certainly trained doctors out there purporting wrong information in support of their own ideology, just as there are biologists who do the same). While a trained professional will of course be on average more reliable than any random person, their status is no replacement for looking at what they did to arrive at their conclusion. rock : There is a huge and profound difference between years of courses at a university and what passes for a biology class at a high school. I hope you realize that. ¹And no, of course humans aren’t herbivores, the simple fact that we don’t get an adequate supply of vitamin B12 from plants is pretty unequivocal evidence of that. The simplest test of whether something is a herbivore is to make the (thought-) experiment of what happens if you put it on an exclusively plant-based diet, which fails spectacularly with humans even assuming otherwise ideal circumstances (varied and high-quality plant matter available year-round, in large amounts), unless we use synthetic dietary supplements.yeah i do think scientists know more than doctors in terms of biology |
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