European Cave Bears (3) vs. Aerosteon riocoloradense

[dinosauria101]

European Cave Bears (3) - Ursus spelaeus
The cave bear (Ursus spelaeus) was a species of bear that lived in Europe during the Pleistocene and became extinct at the beginning of the Last Glacial Maximum about 27,500 years ago. Both the name cave and the scientific name spelaeus derive from the fact that fossils of this species were mostly found in caves, indicating that this species spent more time in caves than the brown bear, which only uses caves for hibernation. Consequently, in the course of time, whole layers of bones, almost entire skeletons, were found in many caves. The cave bear had a very broad, domed skull with a steep forehead. Its stout body had long thighs, massive shins and in-turning feet, making it similar in skeletal structure to the brown bear. Cave bears were comparable in size to the largest modern day bears. The average weight for males was 400–500 kilograms (880–1102 pounds), while females weighed 225–250 kg (496–551 lbs). Of cave bear skeletons in museums, 90% are male due to a misconception that the female skeletons were merely "dwarfs". Cave bears grew larger during glaciations and smaller during interglacials, probably to adjust heat loss rate. Cave bears of the last ice age lacked the usual 2–3 premolars present in other bears; to compensate, the last molar is very elongated, with supplementary cusps. The humerus of the cave bear was similar in size to that of the polar bear, as were the femora of females. The femora of male cave bears, however, bore more similarities in size to those of Kodiak bears.


Aerosteon riocoloradense
Aerosteon is a genus of tyrannosauroid theropod dinosaur from the Late Cretaceous period of Argentina. Its remains were discovered in 1996 in the Anacleto Formation, dating to the Santonian stage (about 84 million years ago). The type and only known species is A. riocoloradensis. Its specific name indicates that its remains were found 1 km north of the Río Colorado, in the province of Mendoza. They show evidence of a bird-like respiratory system. Aerosteon's name can be translated as air bone and derives from Greek ἀήρ (aer, "air") and οστέον (osteon, "bone"). Aerosteon was a 9 metre (30 ft) long bipedal carnivorous dinosaur that lived approximately 83 million years ago during the Santonian stage. The remains discovered include a single tooth, some cranial bones, a number of partial or complete vertebrae from the neck, back, and sacrum, several cervical and dorsal ribs, gastralia, furcula (wishbone), left scapulocoracoid, left ilium, and left and right pubes. The incomplete fusion of some of its bones indicate that it was not quite fully mature.

Credit to Wikipedia

NOTE: I know bears don't exactly live and fight in groups, but that seems to have been the case for cave bears. Go to Carnivora's archive and see the 3 cave lions vs 2 cave bears thread for the evidence (I can't get it since I was banned)

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

What is the weight of the theropod? If the thropod can kill one of the cave bears easily, it would most likely win.

[dinosauria101]

Jul 29, 2019 7:14:14 GMT 5 DonaldCengXiongAzuma said:

What is the weight of the theropod? If the thropod can kill one of the cave bears easily, it would most likely win.

From the Aerosteon profile:
Aerosteon was a 9 metre (30 ft) long, 2 metric ton bipedal carnivorous dinosaur that lived approximately 83 million years ago during the Santonian stage.
Read more: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/1815#ixzz5v4KyI62k
Also from the OP: 
The incomplete fusion of some of its bones indicate that it was not quite fully mature.

Looks like it would've weighed at least 2 tons. I think it would be able to dispatch of each bear fairly quickly if that's the case

[dromaeosauridae117]

Aerosteon was actually a member of the Megaraptoridae. If this fight were to ever take place, I would expect the group of 3 cave bears to emerge victorious. It’s simply due to the 3:1 ratio. The combined mass of the 3 bears approaches the mass of the 1 Aerosteon. As soon as Aerosteon targets one bear, it would render itself vulnerable to the two other cave bears. In a 1v1 scenario, I have no doubt that the Aerosteon would defeat the cave bear. Here is a similar scenario. Large dogs in the western United States occasionally encounter wild mountain lions. In a 1v1 situation, the mountain lion would make short work of the domestic dog. But when the dog has a group to aid in attack, the cat would have a difficult time defeating all of them.

[dinosauria101]

Aug 2, 2019 7:10:47 GMT 5 dromaeosauridae117 said:

1: Aerosteon was actually a member of the Megaraptoridae.
2: If this fight were to ever take place, I would expect the group of 3 cave bears to emerge victorious. It’s simply due to the 3:1 ratio. The combined mass of the 3 bears approaches the mass of the 1 Aerosteon. As soon as Aerosteon targets one bear, it would render itself vulnerable to the two other cave bears. In a 1v1 scenario, I have no doubt that the Aerosteon would defeat the cave bear. Here is a similar scenario.
3: Large dogs in the western United States occasionally encounter wild mountain lions. In a 1v1 situation, the mountain lion would make short work of the domestic dog. But when the dog has a group to aid in attack, the cat would have a difficult time defeating all of them.

1: Yes it is a megaraptoran, you are correct. However, megaraptorans are tyrannosauroids
2: I'd favor the Aerosteon here for a number of reasons:
    - The average cave bear is 450 kg. Aerosteon is 2 tons, and that's not yet fully grown. Even with the juvenile/subadult Aerosteon, it outweighs each bear by a decent margin (2 tons vs 1.35 tons), and an adult would have even more of a size advantage
    -Aerosteon would be able to dispatch of each bear relatively quickly due to its proportionately huge claws and jaws, and would be certainly durable enough to survive some clawing and biting from the other 2 bears while it does so   
3: That is a good example of smaller predators vs large predator, but I'm not sure it can be applied here for 3 reasons:

1: Mountain lions have very limited stamina compared to domestic dogs, and that's a major Achilles' heel against canines that can outlast it quite well. Aerosteon on the other hand was actually found to have air sacs for more efficient respiration and stamina, in fact that is what gave it its name. So if anything, it might be the one tiring out the bears.
2: Which domestic dogs are you talking about? I doubt they'd defeat the mountain lion if the size ratio was similar to this matchup; domestic dogs usually only kill predators with a weight advantage in numbers, but here, the larger predator has about a 50 percent size advantage over the smaller ones, therefore it may not be the best analogy for the abilities of the big predator.
3: This is likely subjective, but Aerosteon, to me at least, seems significantly better armed than a mountain lion; it has a much larger head and can cause much more damage per bite, and it has much bigger claws. That would likely help it kill a cave bear faster than a mountain lion killing the domestic dogs you mentioned.

[dromaeosauridae117]

Aug 2, 2019 9:01:01 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

Aug 2, 2019 7:10:47 GMT 5 dromaeosauridae117 said:

1: Aerosteon was actually a member of the Megaraptoridae.
2: If this fight were to ever take place, I would expect the group of 3 cave bears to emerge victorious. It’s simply due to the 3:1 ratio. The combined mass of the 3 bears approaches the mass of the 1 Aerosteon. As soon as Aerosteon targets one bear, it would render itself vulnerable to the two other cave bears. In a 1v1 scenario, I have no doubt that the Aerosteon would defeat the cave bear. Here is a similar scenario.
3: Large dogs in the western United States occasionally encounter wild mountain lions. In a 1v1 situation, the mountain lion would make short work of the domestic dog. But when the dog has a group to aid in attack, the cat would have a difficult time defeating all of them.

1: Yes it is a megaraptoran, you are correct. However, megaraptorans are tyrannosauroids
2: I'd favor the Aerosteon here for a number of reasons:
    - The average cave bear is 450 kg. Aerosteon is 2 tons, and that's not yet fully grown. Even with the juvenile/subadult Aerosteon, it outweighs each bear by a decent margin (2 tons vs 1.35 tons), and an adult would have even more of a size advantage
    -Aerosteon would be able to dispatch of each bear relatively quickly due to its proportionately huge claws and jaws, and would be certainly durable enough to survive some clawing and biting from the other 2 bears while it does so   
3: That is a good example of smaller predators vs large predator, but I'm not sure it can be applied here for 3 reasons:

1: Mountain lions have very limited stamina compared to domestic dogs, and that's a major Achilles' heel against canines that can outlast it quite well. Aerosteon on the other hand was actually found to have air sacs for more efficient respiration and stamina, in fact that is what gave it its name. So if anything, it might be the one tiring out the bears.
2: Which domestic dogs are you talking about? I doubt they'd defeat the mountain lion if the size ratio was similar to this matchup; domestic dogs usually only kill predators with a weight advantage in numbers, but here, the larger predator has about a 50 percent size advantage over the smaller ones, therefore it may not be the best analogy for the abilities of the big predator.
3: This is likely subjective, but Aerosteon, to me at least, seems significantly better armed than a mountain lion; it has a much larger head and can cause much more damage per bite, and it has much bigger claws. That would likely help it kill a cave bear faster than a mountain lion killing the domestic dogs you mentioned.

I created that example to illustrate how critical it is to have a number advantage in a fight. I wasn’t necessarily comparing a cougar to an Aerosteon in terms of ability, weaponry, etc. The dogs I would be referring to are German Shepard’s. I actually have relatives that live in Idaho and they have witnessed encounters with cougars and their dogs, which are GSD’s. I actually did not know Aerosteon had air sacs, which is very interesting and definitely shifts the odds in this fight. Although Aerosteon is without doubt the better equipped fighter, I still don’t know if it would emerge victorious in a 3v1 situation. It seems to also have a considerable weight advantage, so I think this could go either way. Numbers vs strength.

[dinosauria101]

Aug 2, 2019 21:54:13 GMT 5 dromaeosauridae117 said:

Aug 2, 2019 9:01:01 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

1: Yes it is a megaraptoran, you are correct. However, megaraptorans are tyrannosauroids
2: I'd favor the Aerosteon here for a number of reasons:
    - The average cave bear is 450 kg. Aerosteon is 2 tons, and that's not yet fully grown. Even with the juvenile/subadult Aerosteon, it outweighs each bear by a decent margin (2 tons vs 1.35 tons), and an adult would have even more of a size advantage
    -Aerosteon would be able to dispatch of each bear relatively quickly due to its proportionately huge claws and jaws, and would be certainly durable enough to survive some clawing and biting from the other 2 bears while it does so   
3: That is a good example of smaller predators vs large predator, but I'm not sure it can be applied here for 3 reasons:

1: Mountain lions have very limited stamina compared to domestic dogs, and that's a major Achilles' heel against canines that can outlast it quite well. Aerosteon on the other hand was actually found to have air sacs for more efficient respiration and stamina, in fact that is what gave it its name. So if anything, it might be the one tiring out the bears.
2: Which domestic dogs are you talking about? I doubt they'd defeat the mountain lion if the size ratio was similar to this matchup; domestic dogs usually only kill predators with a weight advantage in numbers, but here, the larger predator has about a 50 percent size advantage over the smaller ones, therefore it may not be the best analogy for the abilities of the big predator.
3: This is likely subjective, but Aerosteon, to me at least, seems significantly better armed than a mountain lion; it has a much larger head and can cause much more damage per bite, and it has much bigger claws. That would likely help it kill a cave bear faster than a mountain lion killing the domestic dogs you mentioned.

1: I created that example to illustrate how critical it is to have a number advantage in a fight. I wasn’t necessarily comparing a cougar to an Aerosteon in terms of ability, weaponry, etc. The dogs I would be referring to are German Shepard’s. I actually have relatives that live in Idaho and they have witnessed encounters with cougars and their dogs, which are GSD’s. I actually did not know Aerosteon had air sacs, which is very interesting and definitely shifts the odds in this fight.
2: Although Aerosteon is without doubt the better equipped fighter, I still don’t know if it would emerge victorious in a 3v1 situation. It seems to also have a considerable weight advantage, so I think this could go either way. Numbers vs strength.

1: Ah, the number advantage. I definitely agree it is critical in a fight, but what it comes down to is the nature of the opponents IMO. Here, that seems to favor the Aerosteon due to a larger array of weaponry.
2: I did make a size chart to help gauge this match. Here:

[dromaeosauridae117]

Aug 3, 2019 0:34:50 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

Aug 2, 2019 21:54:13 GMT 5 dromaeosauridae117 said:

1: I created that example to illustrate how critical it is to have a number advantage in a fight. I wasn’t necessarily comparing a cougar to an Aerosteon in terms of ability, weaponry, etc. The dogs I would be referring to are German Shepard’s. I actually have relatives that live in Idaho and they have witnessed encounters with cougars and their dogs, which are GSD’s. I actually did not know Aerosteon had air sacs, which is very interesting and definitely shifts the odds in this fight.
2: Although Aerosteon is without doubt the better equipped fighter, I still don’t know if it would emerge victorious in a 3v1 situation. It seems to also have a considerable weight advantage, so I think this could go either way. Numbers vs strength.

1: Ah, the number advantage. I definitely agree it is critical in a fight, but what it comes down to is the nature of the opponents IMO. Here, that seems to favor the Aerosteon due to a larger array of weaponry.
2: I did make a size chart to help gauge this match. Here:

The difference in size is incredible. I switch my expected victor. Although I am not sure if the scaling is exact, but I would expect the Aerosteon winning this duel. Aerosteon wins 8/10 times.

[dinosauria101]

Aug 3, 2019 0:57:06 GMT 5 dromaeosauridae117 said:

Aug 3, 2019 0:34:50 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

1: Ah, the number advantage. I definitely agree it is critical in a fight, but what it comes down to is the nature of the opponents IMO. Here, that seems to favor the Aerosteon due to a larger array of weaponry.
2: I did make a size chart to help gauge this match. Here:

The difference in size is incredible. I switch my expected victor. Although I am not sure if the scaling is exact, but I would expect the Aerosteon winning this duel. Aerosteon wins 8/10 times.

Yes, size charts are pretty helpful.
It was scaled to average sizes; the bears are about 1.2-1.3 meters shoulder height while the Aerosteon is 9 meters axial length