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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 6, 2019 15:56:05 GMT 5
Jaguar - Panthera onca The jaguar (Panthera onca) is a big cat, a feline in the Panthera genus, and is the only Panthera species found in the Americas. The jaguar is the third-largest feline after the tiger and the lion, and the largest in the Western Hemisphere. The jaguar's present range extends from Southern United States and Mexico across much of Central America and south to Paraguay and northern Argentina. A study of the Jaguar found average weights of 95 kilograms (210 lb) in the Brazilian Pantanal and average weights of 55 kg (121 lb) in most of Central America. A short and stocky limb structure makes the jaguar adept at climbing, crawling and swimming. The head is robust and the jaw extremely powerful. The jaguar hunts wild animals weighing up to 300 kilograms (660 lb) in dense jungle, and its short and sturdy physique is thus an adaptation to its prey and environment.  American Crocodile - Crocodylus acutus The American crocodile (Crocodylus acutus) is a species of crocodilian found in the Neotropics. It is the most widespread of the four extant species of crocodiles from the Americas. Populations occur from the Atlantic and Pacific coasts of southern Mexico to South America as far as Peru and Venezuel. It also lives within many river systems on Cuba, Jamaica, and Hispaniola. Within the United States the American crocodile is only found within the southern half of Florida. In Florida, there is an estimated population of about 2000. The habitat of the American crocodile consists largely of coastal areas. Like all crocodilians, the American crocodile is a quadruped, with four short, splayed legs; a long, powerful tail; a scaly hide with rows of ossified scutes running down its back and tail. The snout is elongated and includes a strong pair of jaws. The eyes have nictitating membranes for protection along with lachrymal glands, which produce tears. The nostrils, eyes, and ears are situated on the top of its head, so the rest of the body can be concealed underwater for surprise attacks. Camouflage also helps them prey on food. The snout is relatively longer and narrower than the American alligator although broader on average than the Orinoco crocodile. American crocodiles are also paler and more grayish than the relatively dark-hued alligator. This crocodile species normally crawl on their belly, but they can also "high walk". Larger specimens can charge up to 10 miles per hour (16 km/h). They can swim at as much as 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) by moving their body and tail in a sinuous fashion, but they cannot sustain this speed. The average adult is 4 metres (13 ft) long and weighs 382 kilograms (840 lb) in males, and 3 metres (9.8 ft) and 173 kilograms (380 lb) in females. In the Tárcoles River in Costa Rica there are dozens of 4-meter and a few 5-meter individuals that frequent bridge crossings (where they are fed daily, which may have helped them reach such consistently large sizes) and are a popular tourist attraction. In their United States range, adult length has been recorded as high as 4.9 metres (16 ft) but adult males on average measure only 3.5 metres (11 ft) long. This species is said to grow largest in the South American river basins, but even old males rarely reach 6 metres (20 ft). A skull of this species was found to measure 72.6 centimetres (28.6 in) and is estimated to have belonged to a crocodile of 6.6 metres (22 ft) in length. Large, mature males regularly weigh about 400–500 kg (880-1100 lb), with the 6 meter+ individuals surpassing 1000 kg (2,200 lb). The longest American crocodile ever actually measured from snout to tail is a 17 feet (5.2 m) male living within the Tarcoles River of Costa Rica.  Credit to Wikipedia |
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
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Post by rock on Aug 9, 2019 1:23:33 GMT 5
seeing how the american crocodile is bigger than its american alligtor counterpart i seee it winning on land or in the water .
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 9, 2019 1:25:59 GMT 5
Agreed, the crocodile definitely has the size to win on land and water.
I'll make a chart later.
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 14, 2019 19:03:32 GMT 5
Croc likely in the water, although I will note jaguars regularly take caiman as large or larger than themselves even in the water. Jags are somewhat crocodilian specialists and are the most skilled big cat in doing it. Also there have been a few presumed predation events that suggest (but do not conclusively establish) that jaguars on rare occasions will take black caiman well over 10 feet long.
On land, it's close. The max size American croc would be outside of jaguar's range, but I actually might favor a male jaguar over the common size adult american crocs. I favor the male jag over an "average" 3.5 meter adult male croc. Once they get into larger sizes,(14+ feet), I favor the croc on land as well.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 14, 2019 19:14:26 GMT 5
1: Croc likely in the water, although I will note jaguars regularly take caiman as large or larger than themselves even in the water. Jags are somewhat crocodilian specialists and are the most skilled big cat in doing it. Also there have been a few presumed predation events that suggest (but do not conclusively establish) that jaguars on rare occasions will take black caiman well over 10 feet long. 2: On land, it's close. The max size American croc would be outside of jaguar's range, but I actually might favor a male jaguar over the common size adult american crocs. 3: I favor the male jag over an "average" 3.5 meter adult male croc. Once they get into larger sizes,(14+ feet), I favor the croc on land as well. 1: Yes, by AMBUSH, I must note. Ambush also allows leopards to bring down eland 10 times their size; something they have no chance of doing head to head. In a head to head fight with both animals at full strength, I would favor a same sized crocodile pretty solidly over a jaguar in water 2: It's a 382 kg crocodile vs a 95 kg (largest population btw) jaguar. Out of curiosity, how do you think the jaguar can kill a crocodile over 4 times its weight before being killed? 3: Average is 4 meters, as the OP says. 4.2 meters is not that far off from average, so there may be a bit of an underestimation of crocodilian size here. Will make a chart later on, by the way |
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 14, 2019 22:25:57 GMT 5
If you look at videos, there's lots of extended time in the water for caimans to use their ability in water to counterattack. Some of the fights involve underwater struggles that take quite awhile. I'd even say some attacks aren't necessarily ambushes. Yet the jaguars seem to win every time and kill the caimans, while suffering no injuries and being completely unscathed. I'd back a jaguar at parity size over any crocodilian except in very deep water.
Where to draw the line on how big a croc has to be to be out of the jag's potential prey range is another question. I'll post more on that later.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 15, 2019 0:45:18 GMT 5
1: If you look at videos, there's lots of extended time in the water for caimans to use their ability in water to counterattack. Some of the fights involve underwater struggles that take quite awhile. I'd even say some attacks aren't necessarily ambushes. Yet the jaguars seem to win every time and kill the caimans, while suffering no injuries and being completely unscathed. 2 :I'd back a jaguar at parity size over any crocodilian except in very deep water. 3 :Where to draw the line on how big a croc has to be to be out of the jag's potential prey range is another question. I'll post more on that later. 1: Would you be able to link some of these videos? I'm only able to find 1, which is a jaguar ambushing a caiman smaller than itself on a river island. In any case, I'm no expert on crocodilians, but could it be due to a lack of willingness to fight? That kind of thing happens with animals like honey badgers and pythons 2: Hm.......I suppose this depends on if you favor jaw based or grapplers. I lean towards the former myself. 3: Yeah it is tough. I will also post more when I have more ideas |
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 15, 2019 2:51:53 GMT 5
Tons and tons of videos. Just google jaguar v. caiman and you'll get 15 to 20 videos. Usually speckled caimans but there are a few that appear to be black caiman. Here's one that appears to show a single jaguar killing a quite large black caiman (I'd guess around 10 feet) in a non-ambush scenario. www.dailymotion.com/video/x2vl5wm |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 15, 2019 3:07:13 GMT 5
elosha11Ah, okay, thanks for the link. However, what has me rather perplexed, as I said earlier, is why such well armed crocodilians lose face to face so often. Maybe it's because they are simply unwilling to fight - as I also said earlier, that is frequently the case with honey badgers and African rock pythons. A fight under the typical AVA scenario rules is rather blatantly one sided in the snake's favor, but we all know what happens in the encounters when the snakes are in 'escape mode'. Could be incorrect about the caimans, but I feel as if they were of the same mindset of the jaguars they would likely win the majority. Anyhow, who do you now favor on land, a jaguar or a crocodile 4.2 times its weight (at least)?
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 15, 2019 10:29:31 GMT 5
I don't think you need to go into animal psychology. Why would the crocs not want to fight, it's their very life at stake? And if they in fact are in "escape mode" rather than fight mode when they get attacked by the jaguar, that should tell you something pretty important about how caimans view themselves as prey to jaguars, not predators. The fact is in reality that jaguars routinely prey upon caimans as large or larger than them. More evidence is emerging to suggest even large black caimans much larger than the jaguar are occasionally preyed upon, even in non-ambush scenarios. The evidence is almost irrefutable. The fact of the matter is that the cat is far more agile than any crocodilian, knows exactly how to kill it, can grapple which the crocodilian cannot do, is very powerfully built itself, and has massive jaws that can easily pierce the crocs head or throat for quick killing bites. The cat has basically every advantage except size. Black caimans are pretty much on par with American crocodiles. So unless the American crocodile exceeds 14-15 feet, I'm going with the jaguar on land or shallow water. I will say the crocodile could ambush and kill the jaguar if caught the cat while it was drinking. But I think it's far more likely the cat wins most of these encounters. Look at how much bigger these caimans are than the jaguar, and it still kills them without suffering a scratch.   And BTW, here's what a jaguar reportedly did to a 15 foot black caiman.  "The caiman was about 15 feet long. And while it was currently dead, it wasn’t dead before and that meant it was formerly roaming the waters near our camp. And it maybe had big friends. It being big and dead also meant something really big had killed it. Bibi later told us that a jaguar had killed the big caiman. To summarize, we knew caiman got big, caiman liked to hang out at our camp sometimes, and jaguars like to eat caiman. Hm." |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 15, 2019 11:26:07 GMT 5
1: I don't think you need to go into animal psychology. Why would the crocs not want to fight, it's their very life at stake? And if they in fact are in "escape mode" rather than fight mode when they get attacked by the jaguar, that should tell you something pretty important about how caimans view themselves as prey to jaguars, not predators. 2: The fact is in reality that jaguars routinely prey upon caimans as large or larger than them. More evidence is emerging to suggest even large black caimans much larger than the jaguar are occasionally preyed upon, even in non-ambush scenarios. The evidence is almost irrefutable. 3: The fact of the matter is that the cat is far more agile than any crocodilian, knows exactly how to kill it, can grapple which the crocodilian cannot do, is very powerfully built itself, and has massive jaws that can easily pierce the crocs head or throat for quick killing bites. The cat has basically every advantage except size. 4: Black caimans are pretty much on par with American crocodiles. So unless the American crocodile exceeds 14-15 feet, I'm going with the jaguar on land or shallow water. I will say the crocodile could ambush and kill the jaguar if caught the cat while it was drinking. But I think it's far more likely the cat wins most of these encounters. Look at how much bigger these caimans are than the jaguar, and it still kills them without suffering a scratch. 5: And BTW, here's what a jaguar reportedly did to a 15 foot black caiman. "The caiman was about 15 feet long. And while it was currently dead, it wasn’t dead before and that meant it was formerly roaming the waters near our camp. And it maybe had big friends. It being big and dead also meant something really big had killed it. Bibi later told us that a jaguar had killed the big caiman. To summarize, we knew caiman got big, caiman liked to hang out at our camp sometimes, and jaguars like to eat caiman. Hm." 1: The same could be said for honey badgers and African rock pythons. Though I could very well be incorrect about that matter, it seems to stack up reasonably well to this situation, so I see no reason why something similar may not apply. 2: I think the reason why caimans don't prey on jaguars is too much effort for too little food - they can end up exhausting themselves in the process and putting themselves at risk. Could be incorrect about that as well, but as I said, this seems to have somewhat of a parallel in honey badgers and African rock pythons 3: In your opinion, if caimans were terrestrial, would you favor them at parity? (just wondering) 4: May I ask however, how often can jaguars reliably kill crocodilians that much bigger than themselves? I don't doubt every now and again, but the American crocodile averages 4.2 times the weight of the largest jaguar population, and while these sorts of accounts seem common, none seem really on the level of this (face to face match) 5: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that caiman 3.8 meters? Could have been bigger, but that is what I remember seeing at wildfact a little bit ago. EDIT: The source states 3.8 meters: redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_156586688343210&key=1d0a9169974733270509e03a2a9b5eb3&libId=jzcknm0v0100st0w000DAbvs31lxu&loc=http%3A%2F%2Ftheworldofanimals.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F347%2Fjaguar-black-caiman&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amylpeterson.com%2F2013%2F02%2Fpeacock-bass-fishing-on-the-amazon-river-the-real-story-day-2%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&title=Jaguar%20vs%20Black%20Caiman%20%7C%20The%20World%20of%20Animals&txt=www.amylpeterson.com%2F2013%2F02%2Fpeacock-bass-fishing-on-the-amazon-river-the-real-story-day-2%2FBy the way, 2 more things -American crocodiles, it seems, do not overlap with the largest jaguar population; their distribution goes more like this:  The largest jaguar population, however, is in southeastern Brazil, so technically if this is 'sympatric', a 55-75 kg jaguar needs to be used since they actually overlap in range. Don't know about you, but to me, that seems a bit one sided in all terrains, and not in the big cat's favor -I apologize if I'm coming off as rude or biased, neither are the intent. I could easily change my tone if that's an issue, and I have no bias towards either party in this field, but am just trying to break the rather monotonous discussion (always 'big cat on land, crocodilian in water') in these threads |
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 16, 2019 1:43:57 GMT 5
I'll respond in more detail to other points. Don't worry about your tone, it's fine. We're just having a polite debate.  On this point, I did want to respond. You stated: But this isn't correct. Not sure where you got 3.8 meters from, that number isn't even referenced in the article. The source in the link clearly states the black caiman was around 15 feet, not 3.8 meters, right under the picture of the caiman. Again, she states: Of course, this is just an estimate. But there's about a 2.5 foot difference between 3.8 meters and 15 feet, and I doubt that caiman was only 12.5 feet long. The picture does seems to indicate a robust and very long, near max size black caiman. Now we don't know for sure if the caiman was sick, dead or already injured, so no one can say definitively the jaguar killed it "fair and square" unless the guide Bibi, actually witnessed the attack. But she's a native and very experienced guide, and she told the author the jaguar killed the caiman, so I'd give her opinion a healthy dose of respect. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 16, 2019 2:11:21 GMT 5
I'll respond in more detail to other points. 1 :Don't worry about your tone, it's fine. We're just having a polite debate. 2: On this point, I did want to respond. You stated: But this isn't correct. Not sure where you got 3.8 meters from, that number isn't even referenced in the article. The source in the link clearly states the black caiman was around 15 feet, not 3.8 meters, right under the picture of the caiman. Again, she states: Of course, this is just an estimate. But there's about a 2.5 foot difference between 3.8 meters and 15 feet, and I doubt that caiman was only 12.5 feet long. The picture does seems to indicate a robust and very long, near max size black caiman. Now we don't know for sure if the caiman was sick, dead or already injured, so no one can say definitively the jaguar killed it "fair and square" unless the guide Bibi, actually witnessed the attack. But she's a native and very experienced guide, and she told the author the jaguar killed the caiman, so I'd give her opinion a healthy dose of respect. 1: Oh, I just don't want to turn this into a slugfest about which animal is cooler; this happened on the old Carnivora having been started by a certain person who may like mountain lions a bit too much on the alligator vs mountain lion thread. But good that it can stay friendly and civil 2: Odd, it said 3.8 meters both on Wildfact AND when you referenced it on the jaguar vs black caiman thread here. What I think happened was a typo, either by one of us or the witnesses |
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Post by elosha11 on Aug 16, 2019 2:48:01 GMT 5
I don't think there was any typo, I simply copied and pasted. I also did a search of the article and neither "3.8" "meter" or "3.8 meter" is contained anywhere in the article. I don't know what "Wildfact" website you looked at, but here's the original source with the original picture, and it states clearly 15 feet and contains no reference to 3.8 meters whatsoever. www.amylpeterson.com/2013/02/peacock-bass-fishing-on-the-amazon-river-the-real-story-day-2/
So I'm certain we can stop referencing 3.8 meters, the secondary Wildfact source probably just got it wrong. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Aug 16, 2019 3:22:30 GMT 5
Oh okay, makes sense.
Who do you think wins on land with a 55-75 kg jaguar and 378 kg crocodile?
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