Jaguar vs. Orinoco Crocodile

[elosha11]

I'll respond to your post in detail later, but the video I posted was definitely not an ambush. It was in shallow water, the black caiman was fully aware of and trying to defend itself against the adult jaguar. They faced each other head on for 15-20 second and then the jaguar easily maneuvered around the caiman's head, bit it on the neck holding the caiman's head underwater, and according the commentator, quickly killed it. I think the video is in the jag v. american croc thread. Rewatch it.

[dinosauria101]

Sept 28, 2019 20:46:48 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

the video I posted was definitely not an ambush

I was actually referring to that account you posted, which you explicitly stated was by ambush. Sorry if I did not make that clear.
About the video you posted in the other thread, a couple of things:
-Could it have been staged? I'm certainly not discounting it being valid, but it looks a LOT like that famous staged video of a jaguar and an anaconda
-You stated the caiman was 3 meters, no? 3 meter crocodilians usually weigh around 100 kg, so the weights may have been fairly close to parity
-About the accounts of the jaguars killing caimans face to face, I looked into my python-honey badger analogy a bit more to help. It seems the pythons are in 'escape mode' because they're not quite warmed up yet, and being cold blooded, that would have negative implications on a fight, therefore they try to flight. Could the same principle be applied to the accounts you were referring to? Certainly seems plausible.

[elosha11]

I've only posted - to my recollection - two jaguar predations on adult caiman. The one is a picture of a large estimated 12-14 foot dead black caiman that the witnesses said was killed by a jaguar. No one recounted how the caiman was killed so we have no idea if it was an ambush or not. The video clearly was not an ambush. I don't know if the video was staged or not. While that may or may not affect the outcome, there was no indication that the caiman was sluggish or not warmed up. And if it was "staged" it was cruel, but not necessarily a much different outcome as it would be naturally. It's not like they were fighting in some man made cage, they were fighting in some kind of open and looking like a natural environment. As to the jaguar anaconda video, I have little doubt that jaguars can and do prey on even very large anacondas, as we've seen multiple accounts of them doing so. Whether they could prey on a max size 20+ foot anaconda is another story, the same question we are talking about with the largest black caimans, american crocs and orinoco crocs.

[dinosauria101]

elosha11

My reply glitched while I was typing it and was deleted. So, I'll just sum up some points.

1: By 'forced', I mean that I've heard on places like discord that filmmakers can sometimes sedate an animal and place it closer to another so they can have more chance of a fight, so that caiman may have been sleepy/disoriented. Moreover, it didn't look quite as active as crocodilians in other nature docs. It could have been cold, or it could have just eaten a very big meal (after pythons eat a very big meal they are not very good at fighting). Moreover, the scenery looks a bit unrealistic, and 2 jaguars at once, one fighting the caiman with no qualms whatsoever while being filmed from a short range? That may have been edited CGI. It is incredibly rare to film good animal fights, let alone the circumstances I described.
Not saying it's not valid but those are some things you may wish to consider.
2: Do we actually have any reliable accounts of a jaguar taking an anaconda similar sized to it face to face when the anaconda was warmed and ready to fight? I have never seen any other accounts other than the jaguar preying on the small yellow anaconda. But feel free to post anymore you find!
3: Although the record anaconda was about 250 kg, much bigger than any jaguar, the average of about 50-60 kg is much lower. And where anacondas primarily overlap with jaguars, it's the larger populations at up to 95 kg. So the anacondas are on average at a large weight disadvantage.

Now, as for the fight itself: What would be your response to my last comment on the previous page?

EDIT:
elosha11, not to be 'pushy'/forceful/rude or anything like that, just asking. Do you have anything to refute my post about why the crocodile would win on lad and water on the previous page? If there is no reply I will assume no.

[dinosauria101]

rock

Care to explain why you voted for the jaguar on land here? You backed the smaller 382 kg American crocodile against the jaguar on land, and the Orinoco is much bigger than that: 380-635 kg crocodile vs 55-95 kg jaguar.
I really don't like the big cat's odds in this matchup.

elosha11
Not to be 'pushy' or rude or anything like that, but I assume since you didn't respond to my last post you now favor the crocodile on land?

[elosha11]

dinosauria101, just haven't had time to get back to this. I'll review and consider further and provide further comment when I have time.

[dinosauria101]

elosha11 , totally fine. Take your time.

Now, for everyone else:
Here is a size comparison I posted earlier, jaguar pictures by guategojira . 
On top: Lower size range; 55 kg jaguar (50 cm shoulder height) vs Orinoco crocodile (4.1 meters, 380 kg)
In the middle: Higher size range; 95 kg jaguar (70 cm shoulder height) vs Orinoco crocodile (5.2 meters, 635 kg)
On the bottom: Record sized 148 kg jaguar (80 cm shoulder height) vs record Orinoco crocodile (6.8 meters, likely about 1.5-1.8 tons based on other large crocodiles)

(I have increased the bulk of the larger crocodiles in accordance with the bulk increase as they grow)

Regarding all the accounts of jaguars killing large crocodilians, no accounts whatsoever exist of a jaguar killing even a sick crocodile 6.6 times its size or greater, ambush or not, land or water. 

And finally, regarding the comparatively slender snout and somewhat piscivorous habits of the Orinoco crocodile, it should have no negative implications on the crocodile whatsoever in regards to this matchup because it is more than strong enough to kill large land animals (they are generalists overall). Even if it wasn't however, it would still be more than strong enough to kill the jaguar because Orinoco crocodiles often eat arapaima which are 100-200 kg; significantly larger than a 55-95 kg jaguar. Not to mention the arapaima's hard, bony scales, which would make it more damage resistant than a same size jaguar.

[sam1]

The issue with this thread is that it simply isn't realistic any more.
It is more of a hypothetical premise since the orinoco next to extinct and there's no representative adult specimens.

For the similar reasons I voted for the Amur tiger vs usuri brown bear. The average weights of contemporary usuri bear males is nowhere near to what they used to be.

[dinosauria101]

sam1

Well, close. But not quite.

See, while the weight of Ussuri bears HAS decreased, that's not really the case with Orinoco crocodiles - adults are rare, but those that DO get to adulthood, and they DO exist (albeit not very many, but since the full grown adults seem to be the rarest that's probably an exception to the rule of using the most common of a species)
Moreover, even if it's not considered sympatric today, it still fits here for the same reasons jaguar vs American alligator does - it used to be.

On topic, who would you back between a 55-95 kg jaguar vs 380-635 kg crocodile?

[sam1]

Oct 19, 2019 14:35:39 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

sam1

Well, close. But not quite.

See, while the weight of Ussuri bears HAS decreased, that's not really the case with Orinoco crocodiles - adults are rare, but those that DO get to adulthood, and they DO exist (albeit not very many, but since the full grown adults seem to be the rarest that's probably an exception to the rule of using the most common of a species)
Moreover, even if it's not considered sympatric today, it still fits here for the same reasons jaguar vs American alligator does - it used to be.

On topic, who would you back between a 55-95 kg jaguar vs 380-635 kg crocodile?

So a 75kg jag vs 510kg crocodile..I'd of course say crocodile 100% in the water, but on land, I would still say the croc but can't rule out jaguar's chances.
If a jaguar can kill a horse with a skull bite, it could possibly kill a crocodile in similar manner as well.

[dinosauria101]

Oct 19, 2019 16:22:37 GMT 5 sam1 said:

Oct 19, 2019 14:35:39 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

sam1

Well, close. But not quite.

See, while the weight of Ussuri bears HAS decreased, that's not really the case with Orinoco crocodiles - adults are rare, but those that DO get to adulthood, and they DO exist (albeit not very many, but since the full grown adults seem to be the rarest that's probably an exception to the rule of using the most common of a species)
Moreover, even if it's not considered sympatric today, it still fits here for the same reasons jaguar vs American alligator does - it used to be.

On topic, who would you back between a 55-95 kg jaguar vs 380-635 kg crocodile?

So a 75kg jag vs 510kg crocodile..I'd of course say crocodile 100% in the water, but on land, I would still say the croc but can't rule out jaguar's chances.
If a jaguar can kill a horse with a skull bite, it could possibly kill a crocodile in similar manner as well.

My primary concern for the jaguar's skull biting tactic here is that the sheer size of the crocodile's head might prevent it from implementing a good attack. The larger the crocodile's head, the wider it has to open its mouth. And the wider it has to open its mouth, the less force its bite will have, meaning a skull bite on a crocodile this size may very well be practically useless/superficial.
To put that more into perspective:
The area of a crocodile's head where the braincase is would have a diameter approximately 40 percent the length of the skull. The skull, in turn, is 22.5 percent the entire length, and the width of the skull would be the snout-to-tail length divided by 11.25. Therefore, we have a width of the back of the skull of 36.44 cm in a 4.1 meter and 380 kg crocodile, 41.33 cm in a 4.65 meter, 510 kg crocodile, and 46.22 cm in a 5.2 meter, 635 kg crocodile. 
Now I don't know if we can do the same kind of scaling to find the gape of a jaguar, but it seems very doubtful a jaguar could even open its mouth that wide. Even if it could, there isn't going to be very much bite force exerted.

[dinosauria101]

Alright, so with the help of creature386, this ridiculously long and annoying PDF, and GuateGojira's jaguar chart, I am now able to scrap together some tidbits of information.

This chart has a 55 kg and 95 kg jaguar, on the right and left respectively. The dark silhouettes are record sized individuals; they should be ignored

The lion has the widest gape of all the big cats, at 65 degrees. This means the jaguar's gape is less than that.
I also found this image of a jaguar yawning, and this is very likely the meximum gape it is capable of:

This jaguar appears to have a gape approximately equal to its skull length (it may look like more but from this angle the skull looks shorter than it is).
Assuming we apply that to the jaguar size chart I posted, the smaller jaguar would have a gape of 25 centimeters and the larger one 28 centimeters. A mean 75 kg jaguar's gape would likely be around 26.5 centimeters. Not quite enough to get their jaws around the heads/necks of the respectively sized crocodiles. And even if it was, there would be very little bite force due to the wide gape angle.

Long story short, skull/neck bites aren't much of an option on a crocodilian this big.

[sam1]

Where do you find those relation estimates?
By skull length, a 4m crocodile actually is comparable to an average horse.
Also, jaguar could bite the skull laterally, targeting the relatively narrow eye socket ridge area, and still crack the skull open.

[dinosauria101]

Oct 19, 2019 19:25:41 GMT 5 sam1 said:

1: Where do you find those relation estimates?
2: By skull length, a 4m crocodile actually is comparable to an average horse.
3: Also, jaguar could bite the skull laterally, targeting the relatively narrow eye socket ridge area, and still crack the skull open.

1: Image extrapolations
2: Length, but not width, which is what I was referring to
3: It COULD, in theory. But that's both a very bad idea and unlikely to happen for these reasons:
-Very hard to outflank a much larger, aware crocodile, and that area is hard to access
-Can easily be shaken or tossed off
-Unlikely to kill or incapacitate quickly
-By doing that the jaguar is in prime range to be bitten and killed