|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 16:40:11 GMT 5
Jaguar - Panthera onca The jaguar (Panthera onca) is a big cat, a feline in the Panthera genus, and is the only Panthera species found in the Americas. The jaguar is the third-largest feline after the tiger and the lion, and the largest in the Western Hemisphere. The jaguar's present range extends from Southern United States and Mexico across much of Central America and south to Paraguay and northern Argentina. Jaguars tend to have weights varying from 55 to 95 kg (120 to 210 lb), with the largest male ever recorded weighing 148 kg (346 lb) and the smallest females weighing 36 kg (80 lbs). A short and stocky limb structure makes the jaguar adept at climbing, crawling and swimming. The head is robust and the jaw extremely powerful. The jaguar hunts wild animals weighing up to 300 kilograms (660 lb) in dense jungle, and its short and sturdy physique is thus an adaptation to its prey and environment.  fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/343/9/6/jaguar_by_alannahily-d34ju3t.jpgOrinoco Crocodile - Crocodylus intermedius The Orinoco crocodile, (Crocodylus intermedius), is a critically endangered crocodile found in freshwater in northern South America, in particular the Orinoco River. Typical measurements for adults are 4.1 to 5.2 meters (13.4 to 17 feet) in males and 3.5 meters (11 feet) in females. Typical weight for males is 380-635 kg (838-1400 lbs), with a mean of about 507 kg (1,115 lbs), and a mean of about 225 kg (495 lbs) for females. The largest specimen reported was shot in 1800 and allegedly measured 6.8 m (22.6 ft). It is arguably the largest crocodilian in the Americas, although American Crocodiles approach similar dimensions. The Orinoco crocodile can be recognised by its relatively long snout and its yellowish hide with dark brown bands. Like all crocodilians, the majority of the Orinoco crocodile's diet consists of fish, but it is arguably the apex predator of its habitat as virtually any animal living within its range could be considered a potential meal, such as reptiles, birds, and mammals. Despite having a rather elongated skull, its base snout is wide, hinting to a generalist diet. It stalks both aquatic and terrestrial prey.  i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--BL2qf0yV--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/falelaljqxii580o88wy.jpg Credit to Wikipedia NOTE: I know this might seem a bit superfluous given the 2 other similar threads we have, but I'd like to have at least 1 big cat vs crocodilian matchup that differs from the usual 'cat on land, crocodile in water' discussion. |
|
|
|
Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 27, 2019 16:56:46 GMT 5
So how do you plan on getting it this time?
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 16:57:45 GMT 5
So how do you plan on getting it this time? By using the very, very biggest crocodilian that is sympatric with the jaguar. Did it work? |
|
|
|
Post by Infinity Blade on Sept 27, 2019 17:00:12 GMT 5
We haven't even gotten the discussion started!
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 20:43:40 GMT 5
We haven't even gotten the discussion started! Well, yes, that is true. But what I actually meant by that is do you think I used a big enough crocodile? Anyhow, here's a size chart of average Orinoco crocodile and largest jaguar population (the crocodile is about 500 kg while the jaguar is 95 kg)  |
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Sept 27, 2019 20:51:15 GMT 5
Given the ease with which jags kill caimans even larger than themselves and even periodically prey on large black caimans, I'm going to cautiously give this a big male jag somewhere b/t 55-60 percent of the time. This croc is primarily piscivorous and its skull is a bit more narrow overall than really big crocs like nile and sw crocs. AND, it seems to not reach really huge sizes any more in modern times and is likely less aggressive than nile and salties.
|
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Sept 27, 2019 20:52:29 GMT 5
This is on land. I'll give it to a very large croc in deep water, although jags have shown they can still easily kill sizeable caiman in water.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 20:56:41 GMT 5
1: Given the ease with which jags kill caimans even larger than themselves and even periodically prey on large black caimans, I'm going to cautiously give this a big male jag somewhere b/t 55-60 percent of the time. 2:This croc is primarily piscivorous and its skull is a bit more narrow overall than really big crocs like nile and sw crocs. 3: AND, it seems to not reach really huge sizes any more in modern times 4: and is likely less aggressive than nile and salties. 1: Yes, that's true. But as we discussed in the other thread, that's not quite equivalent to a head to head fight. Also, how do you expect a 55-95 kg jaguar to beat a 380-635 kg crocodile? 2: False. They're actually generalists, and their skulls are fairly strong: Ross, R.P. (1998) Crocodiles: Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan. Second Edition. IUCN/SSC Crocodile Specialist Group, IUCN, Gland, Switzerland and Cambridge, UK. Wikipedia even states they are generalists, with the snout helping to catch fish and large animals 3: I believe it's because not many get to quite grow fully. A (fully grown, which is rare, yes) Orinoco crocodile is over 5 times the weight of the largest jaguar population. I get where you're coming from, but shouldn't we still use the adult size even if it's rarer today because it's considered fully grown? 4: Reason? |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 21:02:25 GMT 5
This is on land. I'll give it to a very large croc in deep water, although jags have shown they can still easily kill sizeable caiman in water. And how do you expect a jaguar to kill a healthy, aware crocodile that outweighs it at LEAST 5 to 1? |
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Sept 27, 2019 21:56:09 GMT 5
^By superior speed, maneuverability, skill/experience and a powerful bite the throat or back of the skull. We've seen several examples of jaguars killing adult black caimans. It's a dangerous fight, no doubt, but jags still seem to come out on top during the rare confrontations. I don't see it going down differently with an orinoco. Again, I'm only barely favoring the cat.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 22:53:11 GMT 5
1: ^By superior speed, maneuverability, skill/experience and a powerful bite the throat or back of the skull. 2: We've seen several examples of jaguars killing adult black caimans. 3: It's a dangerous fight, no doubt, but jags still seem to come out on top during the rare confrontations. I don't see it going down differently with an orinoco. 4: Again, I'm only barely favoring the cat. 1: Wouldn't the size disparity be a bit too great for that? The average (fully grown) Orinoco crocodile is literally 5.26 times the weight of the very largest jaguar population, and even more of a size disparity with the others. 2: That's by ambush, not quite as much size disparity as here, and IIRC you considered caimans less formidable than crocodiles 3: Have we any accounts of a jaguar, by ambush or not, killing a healthy crocodile at least 5.26 times its size? 4: In the jaguar vs American crocodile, you said you would favor the crocodile on land at 4.2 meters. This crocodile is 4.6 meters approx. Does that change your take here? |
|
|
|
Post by creature386 on Sept 27, 2019 23:36:05 GMT 5
Since they coexist, can't we just focus on the environment where they are most likely to meet and spare all the effort specifying where the fight takes place?
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 27, 2019 23:37:11 GMT 5
Most certainly we can. I was just looking at all the outcomes in all terrains.
|
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Sept 28, 2019 5:57:57 GMT 5
1: ^By superior speed, maneuverability, skill/experience and a powerful bite the throat or back of the skull. 2: We've seen several examples of jaguars killing adult black caimans. 3: It's a dangerous fight, no doubt, but jags still seem to come out on top during the rare confrontations. I don't see it going down differently with an orinoco. 4: Again, I'm only barely favoring the cat. 1: Wouldn't the size disparity be a bit too great for that? The average (fully grown) Orinoco crocodile is literally 5.26 times the weight of the very largest jaguar population, and even more of a size disparity with the others. 2: That's by ambush, not quite as much size disparity as here, and IIRC you considered caimans less formidable than crocodiles 3: Have we any accounts of a jaguar, by ambush or not, killing a healthy crocodile at least 5.26 times its size? 4: In the jaguar vs American crocodile, you said you would favor the crocodile on land at 4.2 meters. This crocodile is 4.6 meters approx. Does that change your take here? Well, good job, you are making me rethink my position. You are correct that I earlier backed a marginally smaller American croc against the jag. I think that was before I found and posted that video of the jag killing a fairly sizeable/average adult size black caiman so easily (although not max size). It just got around and top of the caiman so easily it made me think jags might be so good at this that they can, on rare occasions, kill even really large crocs. Now I wouldn't at all back a jag against a large nile or sw croc, as I think those crocs are not only bigger, but also distinctly more combative. To me, the jag is fast enough to outmaneuver and get on top of any croc. But the question than becomes is a really big croc's neck too big and armored for even the cat's powerful bite? And could a big croc thrash and roll before the cat do much damage? Still on land, the cat's likely too quick and agile to get bit unless it's careless and gets in front of the croc. Crocodilians are much faster/quicker than would be expected and can do side lunges and twist with lighting speed. But there is no way they can turn faster than the cat and it won't have much trouble getting behind. Of course the table's are somewhat turned in the water, despite the jag's skill in the water. If the croc gets a bite, it will drag the cat underwater and drown it, and it is overall a better swimmer than the cat and far more comfortable in deep water. |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 28, 2019 14:24:21 GMT 5
1: Wouldn't the size disparity be a bit too great for that? The average (fully grown) Orinoco crocodile is literally 5.26 times the weight of the very largest jaguar population, and even more of a size disparity with the others. 2: That's by ambush, not quite as much size disparity as here, and IIRC you considered caimans less formidable than crocodiles 3: Have we any accounts of a jaguar, by ambush or not, killing a healthy crocodile at least 5.26 times its size? 4: In the jaguar vs American crocodile, you said you would favor the crocodile on land at 4.2 meters. This crocodile is 4.6 meters approx. Does that change your take here? 1: Well, good job, you are making me rethink my position. You are correct that I earlier backed a marginally smaller American croc against the jag. 2: I think that was before I found and posted that video of the jag killing a fairly sizeable/average adult size black caiman so easily (although not max size). 3: It just got around and top of the caiman so easily it made me think jags might be so good at this that they can, on rare occasions, kill even really large crocs. 4: Now I wouldn't at all back a jag against a large nile or sw croc, as I think those crocs are not only bigger, but also distinctly more combative. 5: To me, the jag is fast enough to outmaneuver and get on top of any croc. 6: But the question than becomes is a really big croc's neck too big and armored for even the cat's powerful bite? 7: And could a big croc thrash and roll before the cat do much damage? 8: Still on land, the cat's likely too quick and agile to get bit unless it's careless and gets in front of the croc. Crocodilians are much faster/quicker than would be expected and can do side lunges and twist with lighting speed. But there is no way they can turn faster than the cat and it won't have much trouble getting behind. 9: Of course the table's are somewhat turned in the water, despite the jag's skill in the water. If the croc gets a bite, it will drag the cat underwater and drown it, and it is overall a better swimmer than the cat and far more comfortable in deep water. 1: So do you now favor the crocodile here on land? 2: Well, as I said, I doubt that can be used as a reference for this matchup, for a number of reasons. -It was an ambush -We do not know the condition of the caiman -The size disparity here is much, much bigger. 55-95 kg jaguar vs 380-635 kg crocodile. At the lower size range, the crocodile is about 6.9 times the jaguar's size, at the mean, the crocodile is about 6.6 times bigger, and at the higher size range the crocodile is also about 6.6 times bigger. And at record sizes, the jaguar has absolutely no chance. The record sized Orinoco crocodile was about 7 meters, so it would weigh about 1.5-2 tons. The record sized jaguar meanwhile was only 148 kg. That means the crocodile is over ten times the weight of the jaguar at max. We have no accounts of ANY jaguar, whether on land or water, ambush or not, taking ANY crocodile with a size disparity like the sizes I just outlined. 3: And as I said earlier, with the rather large size disparity and given that we have no accounts of any jaguar achieving any feat comparable or close to this matchup (in terms of weight disparity), I find it rather doubtful. 4: More combative? Is it because they don't have slender snouts? I think I've addressed that earlier; despite the relatively slender front snout, their jaws are perfectly capable of killing just as big animals as other crocodilians. In fact, I believe the slender front but not the back may be an adaptation to take advantage of an environment where there are not only sizable land animals to eat but lots of big fish, like arapaima and red tailed catfish. Or is it because Niles and salties are more aggressive than other crocs? I can see where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean Orinoco crocodiles are not combative. It would mean Niles and salties are very combative for crocodile standards. 5: From which point the crocodile can quite easily dislodge it, death roll, or simply catch it before it can get there (with that large size disparity I would not be surprised) 6: Yes, most definitely would be. A crocodile of this size can easily withstand several bites to the neck/head region, while the same can NOT be said for the jaguar. In fact, I would be very surprised if the first bite does not do the jaguar in, and with such a size disparity it's that much easier to either dislodge and catch the jaguar or simply just grab it before it can outflank the crocodile. 7: For reasons outlined in number 6, I most definitely think so. 8: And with a size disparity like this, the jaguar has some things working AGAINST it. -Its solid build. It's good for fairly straight bursts of speed which jaguars use to ambush small caimans, but not good for significant agility due to shorter legs. -The sheer size disparity -The jaguar's very poor stamina -Large crocodiles have rather good stamina So, with all the above factors in mind, merely outflanking the crocodile will be rather tough. 9: Croc wins easily in water, I agree. And the crocodile doesn't even need to grab and hold. As I said, as with on land, one bite would very likely do the jaguar in. |
|
