Deinonychus vs Leopard

[Runic]

Deinonychus

Based on the largest known specimens, Deinonychus could reach 3.4 meters (11.1 ft), with a maximum skull length of 410 mm (16.4 in), a hip height of 0.87 meters (2.85 ft), a maximum weight of 73 kilograms (161 lb). Its skull was equipped with powerful jaws lined with around sixty curved, blade-like teeth. Studies of the skull have progressed a great deal over the decades. Ostrom reconstructed the partial, imperfectly preserved, skulls that he had as triangular, broad, and fairly similar to Allosaurus. Additional Deinonychus skull material and closely related species found with good 3D preservation show that the palate was more vaulted than Ostrom thought, making the snout far narrower, while the jugals flared broadly, giving greater stereoscopic vision. The skull of Deinonychus was different from that of Velociraptor, however, in that it had a more robust skull roof like that of Dromaeosaurus, and did not have the depressed nasals of Velociraptor. Both the skull and the lower jaw had fenestrae (skull openings) which reduced the weight of the skull. In Deinonychus, the antorbital fenestra, a skull opening between the eye and nostril, was particularly large.

African Leopard

The leopard, Panthera pardus, is a member of the Felidae family and the smallest of the four "big cats" in the genus Panthera, the other three being the tiger, lion, and jaguar. The leopard was once distributed across eastern and southern Asia and Africa, from Siberia to South Africa, but its range of distribution has decreased radically because of hunting and loss of habitat. It is now chiefly found in sub-Saharan Africa; there are also fragmented populations in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Indochina, Malaysia, and China. Because of its declining range and population, it is listed as a "Near Threatened" species by the IUCN.
Leopard are agile and stealthy predators. Although smaller than other members of the Panthera genus, they are able to take large prey due to their massive skulls that facilitate powerful jaw muscles. Head and body length is between 125 and 165 cm (49 and 65 in), and the tail reaches 60 to 110 cm (24 to 43 in). Shoulder height is 45 to 80 cm (18 to 31 in). The muscles attached to the scapula are exceptionally strong, which enhance their ability to climb trees. They show a great diversity in size. Males are about 30% larger than females, weighing 30 to 91 kg (66 to 200 lb) compared to 23 to 60 kg (51 to 130 lb) for females. Large males of up to 91 lb (41 kg) have been documented in Kruger National Park in South Africa; however, males in the South Africa's coastal mountains average 31 lb (14 kg). This wide variation in size is thought to result from the quality and availability of prey found in each habitat. Smaller sized leopards also are known in the deserts of the Middle East. Its body is comparatively long, and its legs are short.

[Runic]

Some basic info on deinonychus

Starting from similar morphology in basal forms (cursorial metatarsus and a grasping foot), dromaeosaurids and troodontids follow opposite morphological trends indicative of increasing ecological separation. Dromaeosaurids appear increasingly adapted for grappling larger prey with strong, but slow feet, and unusually hypertrophied D-II unguals. By comparison, troodontids instead evolved towards a more cursorial habit, being fast and nimble with weaker, but quick feet. The more mobile D-I in troodontids perhaps afforded a more even grip, better adapted for snatching and subduing smaller prey. An important part of our interpretation is that ground-based predation need not necessarily be conducted at high speed. It is commonplace for extant terrestrial predators to employ surprise ambush techniques; goshawks and other forest raptor species commonly hunt on the ground, employing ambush and maneuverability as strategies, rather than outright pursuit [60]. Troodontids exhibit limb proportions consistent with cursorial adaptations, suggesting speed and/or pursuit was important to their predatory strategy. By contrast, derived dromaeosaurids such as Velociraptor and Deinonychus do not exhibit limb proportions that suggest significant cursorial ability: rather, they were probably more inclined towards utilizing ambush as a main predatory strategy.

Biomechanical studies by Ken Carpenter in 2002 confirmed that the most likely function of the forelimbs in predation was grasping, as their great lengths would have permitted longer reach than for most other theropods. The rather large and elongated coracoid, indicating powerful muscles in the forelimbs, further strengthened this interpretation.

Relative proportions of the feet vary depending on a predominantly cursorial or grasping function (Figure 5). Extant cursorial birds (e.g. ratites; Emu, Dromaius novaehollandiae, MOR OST-1299) and similar cursorially adapted dinosaur taxa (e.g. Ornithomimidae [42]; Avimimus [43]) typically exhibit a robust D-III, foreshortened distal phalanges with shorter, subequally sized lateral digits (D-II and IV) [11], [13]–[15], [17], [45]–[48]. An opposite trend is seen in the pedal digits of Deinonychosauria and basal Avialae (e.g. Archaeopteryx): D-IV becomes especially elongated, distal non-ungual phalanges are more elongated than in specialist cursors, and D-II becomes hyperextensible. these characters are consistent with grasping rather than a cursorial function [15].
Elongation of the metatarsus increases length of the flexor tendons, thus reducing mechanical advantage (and hence, grip strength), but also increases stride length (with other cursorial benefits [46], [48]) and ‘quickness’ of the feet. Extant accipitrids have an elongate metatarsus compared to other birds of prey, granting them better ability to snatch prey, an important aspect of their predatory strategy [19], [20]. Conversely, acting as the out-lever of the hindlimb, the short robust metatarsus of owls effectively reduces the length of the flexor tendons, increasing mechanical advantage; hence owls have greater force production (grip strength) than that produced by the more elongate metatarsus of accipitrids, but at a cost of less rapid movement [19]. A relatively elongate metatarsus (sometimes subarctometatarsalian) is present in basal paravians (e.g. basal troodontid Sinovenator [49]; basal dromaeosaurid Sinornithosaurus [50]; [51], [52]), indicating a cursorial habit is basal for the clade. This is further developed into a fully arctometatarsalian metatarsus in derived troodontids [5], [37], [38], [46], [53], [54]. By contrast, derived dromaeosaurids like Deinonychus [1], Saurornitholestes (MOR 660), and Velociraptor [33] lost the elongate metatarsus, instead evolving extremely short and robust metatarsi (among the shortest relative to tibia length of all non-avian theropods [55]). This suggests that the plesiomorphic cursorial metatarsus became further adapted towards cursoriality in Troodontidae whereas Dromaeosauridae reversed selection direction, specializing towards grasping strength at the expense of speed (Figure 2).
insert quote here

In closing, I think that the proposal of Fowler et al. (2011), mantling behavior in dromaeosaurids, neatly explains the functional anatomy of the leg and arm, although I would extend this and indicate that the arms would engage the prey regularly. Thus rather than simply borrowing the “mantling hawk” motif, the arms would likely be less feathered and more engaged in prey restraint.insert quote here

That last quote was recently published in 2011 as well! And for extra sting, we go back to the eagle!
Quote:

"As the photos show, golden eagles grab deer and pronghorn anywhere on the head, neck, or body, frequently grasping from the front or side. They kill adult animals with numerous talon stabs into the upper ribs and back. Their feet and talons are well adapted to closing around the backbone, with the talons puncturing large internal arteries, frequently the aorta in front of the kidneys."insert quote here

The safe interpretation is that unlike cats dromaeosaurids, like birds, killed by multiple stabbings with their claws while holding down prey. And as seen in this golden eagle attacking pronghorn

The low foot to lower leg ratio in Deinonychus is due partly to an unusually short metatarsus (upper foot bones). The ratio is actually larger in smaller individuals than in larger ones. Ostrom suggested that the short metatarsus may be related to the function of the sickle claw, and used the fact that it appears to get shorter as individuals aged as support for this. He interpreted all these features – the short second toe with enlarged claw, short metatarsus, etc. – as support for the use of the hind leg as an offensive weapon, where the sickle claw would strike downwards and backwards, and the leg pulled back and down at the same time, slashing and tearing at the prey. Ostrom suggested that the short metatarsus reduced overall stress on the leg bones during such an attack, and interpreted the unusual arrangement of muscle attachments in the Deinonychus leg as support for his idea that a different set of muscles was used in the predatory stroke than in walking or running. Therefore, Ostrom concluded that the legs of Deinonychus represented a balance between running adaptations needed for an agile predator, and stress-reducing features to compensate for its unique foot weapon.[25

We envisage dromaeosaurs leaping onto live prey and establishing footholds on the latter's flanks using the piercing/gripping functions of their pedal digits in combination with the grasping recurved claws on the manus. The sharp, finely serrated teeth of dromaeosaurs (Ostrom 1969, 1990; Norell & Makovicky 2004) could then have inflicted many wounds on their prey, while firmly locked onto the latter's flanks. If the prey turned to defend itself from attack, its attacker would be turned by and with the prey, given that the former was ‘hooked’ on to the latter. This fatal embrace is analogous to the hunting technique used by many species of big cat that use their protracted claws to cling onto to their prey, as powerful jaws crush the windpipe of their prey (Kiltie 1991; Antón & Turner 1997).

Oh and turns out deinonychus didn't use their claws for tree climbing as adults unlike one paper stated (don't remember the name but I remember showing it to coherent)

Parsons and Parsons have shown that juvenile and sub-adult specimens of Deinonychus display some morphological differences with the adults. For instance, the arms of the younger specimens were proportionally longer than those of the adults, a possible indication of difference in behavior between young and adults.[57] Another example of this could be the function of the pedal claws. Parsons and Parsons have suggested that the claw curvature (which Ostrom [1976] had already shown was different between specimens[25]) maybe was greater for juvenile Deinonychus, as this could help it climb in trees, and that the claws became straighter as the animal became older and started to live solely on the ground.[58] This was based on the hypothesis that some small dromaeosaurids used their pedal claws for climbing.[48]

nd just to refute Taipans tetrapod deinonychus only hunted smaller prey pathetic excuse

We do not exclude the possibility that Deinonychus and other dromaeosaurids may have successfully attacked prey much larger than themselves, but their anatomy suggests that, as with all known tetrapod predators, they mostly preyed upon animals smaller than themselves."

It should be noted that big cats are tetrapods.

[Venomous Dragon]

Leopard because extant is where its at.

[Supercommunist]

This is a pretty tough descion. While the leopard would probably be the stronger animal, the deinoychus is better armed. I would proably need a size comparsion between the two as I belive the height diffrence between the two would determine which one would win.

[creature386]

Here you go:

[Fragillimus335]

Aug 28, 2013 1:03:15 GMT 5 creature386 said:

Here you go:

You forgot to skin the Leopard and remove all its fur! That would make the comparison more accurate!

[Runic]

Aug 28, 2013 0:10:53 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

This is a pretty tough descion. While the leopard would probably be the stronger animal, the deinoychus is better armed. I would proably need a size comparsion between the two as I belive the height diffrence between the two would determine which one would win.

The leopard would probably have the stronger forelimbs.... not hindlimbs as birds & droms relied heavily on their feet for grappling.

[creature386]

Aug 28, 2013 1:17:23 GMT 5 Fragillimus335 said:

Aug 28, 2013 1:03:15 GMT 5 creature386 said:

Here you go:

You forgot to skin the Leopard and remove all its fur! That would make the comparison more accurate!

That is not my comparison, broly made it.

[Supercommunist]

Looking at the size comparsion, the leopard would have to rear up on its hindlegs to effectivly grapple with the taller raptor, giving the deinoychus a stability advantage which may help it overcome the cats strength advantage.

For now I give the edge to deinoychus.

[Vodmeister]

Personally, I think the Leopard would win.

Birds are Dromeaosaurs, but the talons of an Eagle are far better grappling tools than the claws of a Deinonychus would be, this is evident by the morphological design.



As you can clearly see, is that unlike the Eagle, the Deinonychus does not have a opposable thumbs, this would severely hamper it's grip, hence grappling ability.

This is where the Deinonychus is at a severe disadvantage compared to the Leopard. Whether it would want to or not, this fight would become a grappling contest, one which it would clearly lose due it's much smaller forelimbs and poorly designed claws (for wrestling).



Just look at the awesome speed, strength, and the outburst of power Felines fight with. The Deino, which is a lightly build animal with limited grappling ability, wouldn't be able to cope against the Leopard in such physical combat IMO.

[Runic]

Sept 1, 2013 5:00:06 GMT 5 Vodmeister said:

Personally, I think the Leopard would win.

Birds are Dromeaosaurs, but the talons of an Eagle are far better grappling tools than the claws of a Deinonychus would be, this is evident by the morphological design.



As you can clearly see, is that unlike the Eagle, the Deinonychus does not have a opposable thumbs, this would severely hamper it's grip, hence grappling ability.

This is where the Deinonychus is at a severe disadvantage compared to the Leopard. Whether it would want to or not, this fight would become a grappling contest, one which it would clearly lose due it's much smaller forelimbs and poorly designed claws (for wrestling).



Just look at the awesome speed, strength, and the outburst of power Felines fight with. The Deino, which is a lightly build animal with limited grappling ability, wouldn't be able to cope against the Leopard in such physical combat IMO.

I suggest reading the deinonychus profile. The deinonychus feet are actually more adapted for fighting than a eagle which evolved extra toes for "perching" not fighting. It's all in the profile. And contrary to popular belief deinonychus wasn't made of paper or lightly built. It actually had robust limbs for grappling. And their limbs are much longer than a leopard s (this should be obvious from looking at the size comp) thus giving them a reach advantage, not to mention their claws overall are more useful (read my bird thread eagle use their claws for grabbing and stabbing while cats use theirs for holding) And eagle don't have thumbs.....

A eagle evolved for avian purposes, deinonychus is what they would be if they stayed terrestrial. Pretty much everything you said about deinonychus and birds revolves around popular belief.

[Venomous Dragon]

Deinonychus' potential dexterity is infact quite impressive.

[Runic]

Sept 1, 2013 8:14:03 GMT 5 Venomous Dragon said:

Deinonychus' potential dexterity is infact quite impressive.

If only they weren't extinct......

[Deleted]

Tough match-up, but I see the Deinonychus getting pinned down and getting bitten on the neck. It would suffer from great injuries though.

[Runic]

Sept 12, 2013 22:14:40 GMT 5 @jagswag said:

Tough match-up, but I see the Deinonychus getting pinned down and getting bitten on the neck. It would suffer from great injuries though.

^ Not with those it aint.