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Post by theropod on Jan 14, 2020 2:08:56 GMT 5
Anyone know exactly how much Dreadnoughtus would have continued to grow (based on the maturity of other titanosaurs) had it not died? I might be able to calculate a possible adult size that way. No.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Jan 17, 2020 5:41:44 GMT 5
The largest FWC biologist verified bull alligators, with a small section of record indivudals from other states from Brunnell et al(2013)
Here is the state record bull for Alabama, measuring 4.5m in total body length and weighing 458kg; Brunnell et al (2015) notes the remains of a white tail deer recovered from the stomach, adding ~45kg to the animals body weight, it is unclear if the 458kg is an adjusted number or needs adjusting according to this. The above is in agreeance with Woodward et al (1995) for animals ~4.5m representing the roof for the size of Bull american alligators, this individual representing a very large representative of its species and one of the largest measured and verified by biologists. Citation: Brunell, Arnold M., et al. "A new record for the maximum length of the American alligator." Southeastern naturalist 14.3 (2015): N38-N43.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Jan 17, 2020 6:12:00 GMT 5
On the subject of american alligator size, here are some very relevant passages from Woodward et al(1995) on Florida records, interestingly it supports the massive 473kg record and has an interesting record of a 129.3kg female, which is very substantial. What is the most interesting about this, is that the 129.3kg female was not even the longest recorded individual, measuring 2.89m that record being of course the 3.09m female who sadly doesn't have a weight for it. Citation: Woodward, Allan R., John H. White, and Stephen B. Linda. "Maximum size of the alligator (Alligator mississippiensis)." Journal of Herpetology (1995): 507-513.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Jan 17, 2020 6:45:27 GMT 5
This is a 13"3, 1380lb (4.0386m, 625.957kg) alligator from arkansas. It is the largest "reliable" modern alligator by weight i can find a record for, though i cannot find a great deal of information so far on it. However, taking the other individuals form my previous posts into consideration, i do suspect that this 625kg figure is probably inflated.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Jan 17, 2020 8:47:59 GMT 5
What was the size of Rajasaurus? GSP gives 11 meters, Larramendi gives 10.5, Grillo and Delcourt gives 6.6 meters, and 9 meters is a fairly common figure elsewhere. Which is most accurate? I don't know where GSP gets 11m from and I need to brush up on my Portuguese before i even attempt to understand Larramendi's book where 10.5m is given. 9m is a common figure but it probably isn't well based, the preserved material described by Wilson et al(2003) for Rajasaurus is comparable in length and distal breadth to Carnotaurus and Majungasaurus; as far as Delcourt goes they for the latter they gave an estimate of ~5.6m so from what i can gather the body length of ~5-6m is probably the best and most well placed estimate. Delcourt noted in the case of Rajasaurus, that their estimate was ~1.7 shorter than what was published elsewhere. Here is the table from Wilson et al(2003) That's just my somewhat educated assessment though, i'm really not a dino lad.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Jan 18, 2020 3:43:24 GMT 5
Here is one of my posts from the thresher shark vs female nile crocodile thread, pertinent morphometric data within.
A female nile crocodile will measure around 3-3.5m in total body length and weigh ~100-150kg(Cott 1961), 150kg is pushing it; a pretty substantially sized female. If the thresher is really 3x the mass, that's an issue. The dimorphism between male and female niles is pretty extravagant. edit:
The heaviest weight i've found for a female is a mean of 168.8kg for the 3.2-3.5m length class(n=11) from Graham's thesis on Lake Rudolph crocodiles, which is derived from Cott(1961), now the female sample is fairly large (n=327), so this is fairly reliable. Here is a morphometric table from Grahams' thesis {1}More on the size of females from his thesis
Here is pertinent information regarding nile crocodile size from cott (1961) {2}, which graham derived his morphometric data from for his thesis in part. Citations{1}Graham, Alistair D. The Lake Rudolf Crocodile (Crocodylus Niloticus Laurenti): Population. Wildlife Services Limited, 1968. {2} B. Cott, Hugh. "Scientific results of an inquiry into the ecology and economic status of the Nile crocodile (Crocodilus niloticus) in Uganda and Northern Rhodesia." The transactions of the Zoological Society of London 29.4 (1961): 211-356.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 25, 2020 1:24:53 GMT 5
Perhaps I ought to make a bit of a better post here on Mamenchisaurus sinocanadorum. A lot of people doubt Greg Paul's mass estimate for this animal (~75 tonnes) even at 35 meters, as mamenchisaurids have very long, thin necks relative to their size. However, ~75 tonnes likely does hold water after all. Scaling from some relatives, such as Mamenchisaurus youngi and Mamenchisaurus constructus (estimated at 16 meters/7 tonnes and 13 meters/5 tonnes by Paul himself) gets about 75 tonnes at 35 meters, if not more, based on M. constructus. Not to mention, a GDI (graphic double integration) of Paul's skeletal done by DeviantArt user SpinoInWonderland also supports the ~75 tonne mass figure. And aside from the neck, the animal is not that lightly built overall - you can see that in Paul's skeletal. References: www.deviantart.com/spinoinwonderland/journal/Some-more-GDI-s-for-a-few-folks-659947404 Paul, G.S. 2010. The Princeton field guide to dinosaurs. Princeton University Press, Princeton. Paul, G.S. 2016. The Princeton field guide to dinosaurs. 2nd Ed.. Princeton University Press, Princeton.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 8, 2020 21:25:08 GMT 5
I may be asking for a bit much here, but would anyone be able to perform a GDI on Mansourasaurus? I want to get an idea of how much certain body parts weigh. Lateral view is from Sallam et al. (2018). I don't know what you'd use for dorsal view, though.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 27, 2020 23:25:28 GMT 5
Antarctosaurus giganteus sizeHere are some size figures I have obtained for Antarctosaurus giganteus. All these are scaled to 235 cm femur catalogued as MLP 26-316, as per Mazzetta (2004), as well as an uncatalogued 250 cm femur in the Museo de La Plata mentioned in Paul (1994) that likely belongs to Antarctosaurus giganteus. It is very incomplete and is only known from large femora (von Huene 1929 and Paul 1994), therefore its size and proportions are mostly conjecture. As such, to get a rough idea of its size, I will scale several other titanosaurs to lengths of 235 and 250 cm femur. For base sauropods, I am using lognkosaurs (such as Ruyangosaurus, Futalognkosaurus, Argentinosaurus, and Patagotitan) and derived lithostrotians (such as Saltasaurus, Diamantinasaurus, Paludititan, Opisthocoelicaudia, and Dreadnoughtus) because they have ended up close to Antarctosaurus in several phylogenetic analyses (such as Poropat 2014, Lacovara 2014, Gonzales Riga 2016, Carballido 2017, Gonzales Riga 2018, Mannion 2019, and Gonzales Riga 2019). I am also using other antarctosaurids such as Bonitasaura, Antarctosaurus wichmannianus, and Antarctosaurus brasiliensis because they, as antarctosaurids, are very closely related to Antarctosaurus giganteus and would almost certainly be similar to it. Mass estimations and scaling:
Based on a 10 meter, 5 tonne, 105 cm femur Bonitasaura (Apesteguia 2004, Paul 2010, Paul 2016 and GetAwayTrike), I get ~30 meters and ~67.64 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~31.91 meters and ~81.43 tonnes for the 250 cm femur, with the larger neck and tail that Antarctosaurus giganteus would have factored in (I used the proportions of this Opisthocoelicaudia GDI assuming a 1/2 as long and voluminous neck, to account for Bonitasaura proportions, and the proportions of this Patagotitan GDI to calculate the percentage of length/mass increase; when scaling the Bonitasaura up with no changes assumed whatsoever, I get ~22.38 meters and ~56 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~23.8 meters and ~67.48 tonnes for the 250 cm femur). Based on a 33.5-37 meter, 80-90 tonne, 250 cm femur Argentinosaurus (randomdinos, Paleo King, Benson 2014), I get ~31.49-34.78 meters and ~66.46-74.75 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and about the same (as the Argentinosaurus) for the 250 cm femur. Based on a 26 meter, 40+ tonne, 190 cm femur Futalognkosaurus (Calvo 2007, Calvo 2008, Benson 2014 and Paleo King, note that the real Futalognkosaurus is probably significantly larger than this but it would not change the proportions), I get ~32.15 meters and ~76+ tonnes for the 235 cm femur and ~34.2 meters and ~91.5+ tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on an 18 meter, 15 tonne, 130 cm femur Antarctosaurus wichmannianus (Ornithopsis), I get ~32.53 meters and ~88 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~34.6 meter and ~105.9 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on a 15 meter, 10 tonne, 115 cm femur Antarctosaurus brasiliensis (Arid and Vizotto 1971, randomdinos), I get ~30.65 meters and ~85.33 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~32.6 meters and ~102.73 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on a 26 meter, 48.45 tonne, 190 cm femur Dreadnoughtus (Lacovara 2014, SVPOW and SpinoInWonderland, note that this is only one reconstruction and other estimates, such as Bates et al. 2015 will get differing results; I used the skeletal from Lacovara, which SVPOW GDI'd and got 57 cubic meters and thus 48.45 tonnes with the proper density of 0.85), I get ~32.15 meters and ~91.6 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~34.2 meters and ~110.2 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on an 8 meter, 2.5 tonne, 81.6 cm femur Saltasaurus (Paul 2010, Paul 2016), I get ~31 meters and ~67.5 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~32.97 meters and ~81.26 tonnes for the 250 cm femur, with the larger neck and tail that Antarctosaurus giganteus would have factored in (I used the proportions of this Saltasaurus GDI* and the proportions of this Patagotitan GDI to calculate the percent of mass and length increase; when scaling the Saltasaurus up with no changes whatsoever assumed, it would be ~23 meters and ~59.4 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~24.5 meters and ~71.89 tonnes for the 250 cm femur). Based on a 31 meter, 60 tonne, 207 cm femur Ruyangosaurus (Sassani and Bivens 2017, Paleo King), I get ~35.19 meters and ~87.8 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~37.43 meters and ~105.7 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on a 30-33 meter, 53-69 tonne, 236 cm femur Patagotitan (Carballido 2017, randomdinos), I get approximately the same for the 235 cm femur, and ~31.91-35.1 meters and ~63.81-83 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on a 16 meter, 15 tonne, 135 cm femur Diamantinasaurus (Hocknull 2009, Poropat 2014), I get ~27.85 meters and ~79.12 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~28.84 meters and ~95.25 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Based on an 8.73 meter, 1.92 tonne, 70 cm femur Paludititan (Megalotitan), I get ~29.3 meters and ~72.64 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~31.17 meters and ~87.46 tonnes for the 250 cm femur . Based on a 15 meter, 10.5 tonne, 130 cm femur Opisthocoelicaudia (Seebacher 2001 and Scott Hartman), I get ~27.11 meters and ~62 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, and ~28.85 meters and ~74.67 tonnes for the 250 cm femur. Resulting masses and lengths:
The estimated masses range from ~53 tonnes to ~91.6 tonnes for the 235 cm femur, with a mean of ~75.76 tonnes, and from ~63.81 to ~110.2 tonnes for the 250 cm femur, with a mean of ~91.22 tonnes - these are very comparable to the masses that several publications have obtained, such as van Valen 1969 (80 tonnes), Mazzetta 2004 (69 tonnes), and Paul 1994 (80-100 tonnes). The estimated lengths range from ~27.11 to ~35.19 meters for the 235 cm femur with a mean of ~31 meters, and from ~28.85 to ~37.43 meters for the 250 cm femur, with a mean of ~33 meters - both are fairly similar to what some of the aforementioned publications such as van Valen 1969 (30 meters) and Paul 1994 (30-35 meters) have obtained. I personally think something roughly in the size range of ~30-35 meters and ~80-100 tonnes (most similar to Paul, 1994) is most likely for both specimens since it's from very close relatives (such as Antarctosaurus wichmannianus and Antarctosaurus brasiliensis), but any of these are on the table. References:
Mazzetta, G.V.; Christiansen, P.; Fariña, R.A. (2004). "Giants and Bizarres: Body Size of Some Southern South American Cretaceous Dinosaurs" G.S. Paul, 1994, "Big sauropods — really, really big sauropods", The Dinosaur Report, The Dinosaur Society von Huene, F. 1929. Los saurisquios y ornitisquios del Cretacéo Argentino. Anales del Museo de La Plata (series 3) 3: 1–196. Poropat, S.F.; Upchurch, P.; Mannion, P.D.; Hocknull, S.A.; Kear, B.P.; Sloan, T.; Sinapius, G.H.K.; Elliot, D.A. (2014). "Revision of the sauropod dinosaur Diamantinasaurus matildae Hocknull et al. 2009 from the mid-Cretaceous of Australia: Implications for Gondwanan titanosauriform dispersal" Lacovara, Kenneth J.; Ibiricu, L. M.; Lamanna, M. C.; Poole, J. C.; Schroeter, E. R.; Ullmann, P. V.; Voegele, K. K.; Boles, Z. M.; Egerton, V. M.; Harris, J. D.; Martínez, R. D.; Novas, F. E. (September 4, 2014). "A Gigantic, Exceptionally Complete Titanosaurian Sauropod Dinosaur from Southern Patagonia, Argentina" González Riga, Bernardo J.; Lamanna, Matthew C.; Ortiz David, Leonardo D.; Calvo, Jorge O.; Coria, Juan P. (2016). "A gigantic new dinosaur from Argentina and the evolution of the sauropod hind foot" Carballido, J.L.; Pol, D.; Otero, A.; Cerda, I.A.; Salgado, L.; Garrido, A.C.; Ramezani, J.; Cúneo, N.R.; Krause, J.M. (2017). "A new giant titanosaur sheds light on body mass evolution among sauropod dinosaurs" Gonzalez Riga, B.J.; Mannion, P.D.; Poropat, S.F.; Ortiz David, L.; Coria, J.P. (2018). "Osteology of the Late Cretaceous Argentinean sauropod dinosaur Mendozasaurus neguyelap: implications for basal titanosaur relationships" Mannion, P.D.; Upchurch, P.; Jin, X.; Zheng, W. (2019). "New information on the Cretaceous sauropod dinosaurs of Zhejiang Province, China: impact on Laurasian titanosauriform phylogeny and biogeography" González Riga, Bernardo J.; Lamanna, Matthew C.; Otero, Alejandro; Ortiz David, Leonardo D.; Kellner, Alexander W. A.; Ibiricu, Lucio M. (2019). "An overview of the appendicular skeletal anatomy of South American titanosaurian sauropods, with definition of a newly recognized clade" Apesteguía, S. 2004. Bonitasaura salgadoi gen. et sp. nov.: a beaked sauropod from the Late Cretaceous of Patagonia. Paul, G.S. 2010. The Princeton field guide to dinosaurs. Princeton University Press, Princeton. Paul, G.S. 2016. The Princeton field guide to dinosaurs. 2nd Ed.. Princeton University Press, Princeton. www.deviantart.com/getawaytrike/art/La-Bonita-614216886 www.deviantart.com/randomdinos/art/Argentinosaurus-huinculensis-schematic-709919163 www.deviantart.com/paleo-king/art/Argentinosaurus-huinculensis-Mk-II-708506050 Benson, R. B. J.; Campione, N. S. E.; Carrano, M. T.; Mannion, P. D.; Sullivan, C.; Upchurch, P.; Evans, D. C. (2014). "Rates of Dinosaur Body Mass Evolution Indicate 170 Million Years of Sustained Ecological Innovation on the Avian Stem Lineage" Calvo, J.O., Porfiri, J.D., González-Riga, B.J., and Kellner, A.W. (2007) "A new Cretaceous terrestrial ecosystem from Gondwana with the description of a new sauropod dinosaur" Calvo, J.O.; Juárez Valieri, R.D. & Porfiri, J.D. 2008. Re-sizing giants: estimation of body length of Futalognkosaurus dukei and implications for giant titanosaurian sauropods." www.deviantart.com/paleo-king/art/Futalognkosaurus-dukei-Mk-IX-694212525 www.deviantart.com/paleo-king/art/Futalognkosaurus-dukei-Mk-X-Calvo-edition-696697321 www.deviantart.com/ornithopsis/art/Antarctosaurus-wichmannianus-716495860 www.museocivico.rovereto.tn.it/UploadDocs/3325_Arid_Vizotto_1971.pdf www.deviantart.com/randomdinos/art/Sauropodomorphs-of-Brazil-692949806 svpow.com/ www.deviantart.com/spinoinwonderland/art/Dreadnoughtus-schrani-skeletal-reconstruction-515239568 Sassani N, Bivens G.T. (2017) The Chinese colossus: an evaluation of the phylogeny of Ruyangosaurus giganteus and its implications for titanosaur evolution www.deviantart.com/paleo-king/art/Ruyangosaurus-giganteus-Mk-II-712420775 www.deviantart.com/randomdinos/art/Patagotitan-mayorum-skeletal-reconstruction-762150985 Hocknull, Scott A.; White, Matt A.; Tischler, Travis R.; Cook, Alex G.; Calleja, Naomi D.; Sloan, Trish; Elliott, David A. (2009). Sereno, Paul (ed.). "New Mid-Cretaceous (Latest Albian) Dinosaurs from Winton, Queensland, Australia" www.deviantart.com/megalotitan/art/Paludititan-MK-III-745180274 Seebacher, F. 2001. A new method to calculate allometric length-mass relationships of dinosaurs. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 21 www.deviantart.com/scotthartman/art/Opisthocoelicaudia-750970320 van Valen, Leigh (1969-08-29). "What Was the Largest Dinosaur?"
* Yes, I know that GDI says Saltasaurus is 8.55 meters and 1.9 tonnes instead of 8 meters and 2.5 tonnes. That's because it is not Greg Paul's, but I couldn't find a GDI table for Paul's and the proportions between the stand-in vs what I'm using as a base should be similar enough.
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Post by theropod on Feb 28, 2020 1:06:26 GMT 5
Here are some size figures I have obtained for Antarctosaurus giganteus based on other titanosaurs: Based on a 5 tonne, 105 cm femur Bonitasaura, I get ~56 tonnes (likely a tad more seeing as how A. giganteus would have a much longer neck and tail). Based on a 80 tonne, 255 cm femur Argentinosaurus, I get ~62.6 tonnes. Based on a 40+ tonne, 190 cm femur Futalognkosaurus, I get ~76 tonnes. Based on a 130 cm femur Antarctosaurus wichmannianus, I get ~88 tonnes. Based on a 48.45 tonne, 190 cm femur Dreadnoughtus, I get ~91.6 tonnes. Based on a 150 cm femur, 17 tonne Mendozasaurus, I get ~61.6 tonnes. Based on a 207 cm femur, 60 tonne Ruyangosaurus, I get ~87.8 tonnes. I personally think ~88 tonnes is most likely since it's from a very close relative, but any of these are on the table. Didn’t you forget something?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 28, 2020 1:56:29 GMT 5
Oh, the citations. My bad.
I'll be right on that
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Post by creature386 on Feb 28, 2020 2:11:29 GMT 5
The femur length used for Antarctosaurus giganteus might also be nice to include. Just a tip.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 28, 2020 2:24:45 GMT 5
Yes, my bad as well. I was sort of in a rush when I posted that.
It's been added now.
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