Naumann's Elephant vs. Utahraptor ostrommaysi (pack of 4)

[dinosauria101]

Naumann's Elephant - Palaeoloxodon naumanni

img09.deviantart.net/4c1f/i/2015/188/b/a/palaeoloxodon_naumanni_by_leogon-d8yevaj.jpg

Order: Proboscidea
Family: Elephantidae
Height: 2.3 to 2.8 meters
Mass: 1.9 to 4.5 tons, based on relatives
Period: Pleistocene, 500,000 to 15,000 years ago
Killing apparatus: Tusks
Lived in what is now Japan. Hunted by early people for sustenance.

Utahraptor ostrommaysi (pack of 4)

4.bp.blogspot.com/-jraRyMnvr3w/UEnSVSmWsYI/AAAAAAAAA6s/IuvfTgASsAg/s640/3.jpg

Suborder: Theropoda
Family: Dromaeosauridae
Length: 6-7 meters
Mass: 600-700 kg
Age and Location: 125 million years ago, Early Cretaceous period, Utah, United States
Diet: Other dinosaurs
Killing Apparatus: Raptorial jaws, manual and pedal claws
The largest known dromaeosaurid dinosaur. Thought to have hunted in packs.

[Life]

Even a lone Utahraptor is a large predator; a pack of these predators would be more than enough to take care of any elephant.

[dinosauria101]

^I agree the Utahraptors should win the fight. Numbers, claws and agility should let them take down the elephant via slashing and maybe tag teaming.

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

I think the utahraptors possess the weapons to take down that elephant if they work coorporately.

[sam1]

How realistic is the proposition of utahraptor jumping high(like, 2-3 meters) and climbing onto the prey?
If it was indeed capable of such feats(which I am sceptical about tho) then a pack would absolutely demolish the elephant.

[Infinity Blade]

Well, there are animals of Utahraptor's size that can jump quite high up. The Spanish bull in particular comes to mind->. But I don't know how high up that is or exactly how high they could jump. One might also bring up different hindlimb morphologies between the two, but I might not be completely justified in using a Spanish bull for comparison. There's a paper that finds creatures like felines and ungulates to actually be better kinematic models for the hindlimbs of non-avian theropods than modern ground dwelling birds.

[dinosauria101]

I'd expect them to be able to, at the very least, hang on to the side and cause some serious damage. As per what Infinity Blade said, I would not be surprised if they could indeed leap up on top like sam1 suggested.
Here's a size chart I made with the maximum for the elephant. Elephant is scaled down P. namadicus fro Prehistoric Fauna while the Utahs are by Hartman.

Regarding the elephant's size, this is from Infinity Blade:

Okay, I'm going to assume these 2.3 to 2.8 meter shoulder height figures are accurate and will use them for what's below.

I was too lazy to do so this morning, but in the process of making this post I've consulted Larramendi (2016) and his skeletals with given body mass and shoulder height estimates for Palaeoloxodon spp.; here-> is a link to it so you can check it out yourselves. With this data from other Palaeoloxodon species, we should be able to use simple isometric scaling to get a good idea of how massive a 2.3 to 2.8 meter tall P. naumanni would be.

This isometric scaling formula is a straightforward one, and one I learned a long time ago; it's simply ((shoulder height of smaller animal/shoulder height of larger animal)^3)*body mass of larger animal=body mass of smaller animal.

Based off of a 40 year old male P. recki specimen weighing 12,300 kg and 427 cm tall at the shoulder, we get anywhere from ~1,922 kg to ~3,468 kg.
Based off of a young adult male P. namadicus specimen estimated to be 435 cm tall at the shoulder and estimated to have weighed 13,000 kg (it appears to be known only from four long bones), we get anywhere from ~1,922 kg to ~3,467 kg.
Based off of a possibly male 40 year old P. antiquus specimen weighing 11,300 kg and 381 cm tall at the shoulder, we get anywhere from ~2,486 kg to ~4,485 kg.
Based off of a >50 year old male P. antiquus specimen estimated to be 420 cm tall at the shoulder and estimated to weigh ~15,000 kg (it appears to be known only from a metacarpal(?), humerus, and teeth(?)), we get anywhere from ~2,463 to ~4,444 kg.
And finally, based off of the now well known 520 cm tall and 22,000 kg P. namadicus specimen (known from a femur fragment), we get anywhere from ~1,904 kg to ~3,435 kg.

Read more: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/50#ixzz654WUp721

[Verdugo]

There is a study in 2019 (link) suggesting that Dromaeosaurids (the taxon in the study is Deinonychus) are probably not really good at hanging on and riding their preys (like what you usually see in Felids) and they suggested that RPR (raptor prey restrain) would be more reasonable.

Considering that Utahraptor's ungual does not seem to be as large and curved as the lighter Dakotaraptor; the flexor tubercule also does not seem to be as developed as Dakotaraptor's; and Utahraptor being much heavier than Deinonychus is; i don't think Utahraptor would prefer jumping on and hanging on to preys.


On the other hand, while have not been properly described and studied, the skull of Utahraptor does appear to be quite heavily built. It actually gives me a Tyrannosaurid-vibe just by looking at it

It's probably better for the Raptor here to just run around and bite the prey's ankles (sort of like modern Canids)

[dinosauria101]

Say, that's pretty interesting! Verdugo, you do have a point that both the skull and the build are up there with Tyrannosaurus rex itself.

I could see the Utahs trying a bite-and-slash strategy intermixed with the usual hit-and-run attacks on the elephant.

[denis]

Utahraptor pack would win. They hunted sauropods which were bigger than the sauropods.

[Infinity Blade]

So, if I'm interpreting Bishop's recent publication correctly, the force exerted on the claw of the dromaeosaurid digit II claw is maximized when the leg is not extended, consistent with grasping and grappling at close quarters, and so is best suited for these purposes.

Interesting (although, of course, the caveats of the study must be kept in mind).

[Shri devi]

Nov 12, 2019 17:51:35 GMT 5 sam1 said:

How realistic is the proposition of utahraptor jumping high(like, 2-3 meters) and climbing onto the prey?
If it was indeed capable of such feats(which I am sceptical about tho) then a pack would absolutely demolish the elephant.

I also doubt Utahraptor being able to jump particularly high, given not only its mass but its stocky build. Some ungulates in its weight class can jump decently high as Infinity Blade pointed out but those are built quite differently, having relatively long distal limb bones. Furthermore, being a biped, Utahraptor would only be able to push off with one leg if it was jumping mid sprint. Also, I think some aspects of Utahraptor's anatomy points towards reduced grappling abilities, such as the distal articular surface of MT III being smooth instead of ginglymoid, in contrast to Deinonychus. It also probably had relatively large foot pads that may have impeded RoM of the digits and reduced the tightness of a grip. Nonetheless, it still had ludicrously robust legs and those sickle claws which it was using for something but I'm not convinced climbing onto prey or RPR is it. 

[Infinity Blade]

...

Yeah I definitely know who you are.

[Shri devi]

Feb 5, 2024 17:30:57 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

...

Yeah I definitely know who you are.

Guilty as charged

[tyrannasorus]

I think we can say that Utahraptor has the weaponry needed to cause sufficient tissue damage, and with 4 of them outflanking and attacking the hindquarters is an easy task