denis
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by denis on Dec 11, 2019 1:12:15 GMT 5
No, I precisely remember they saw it as a 68 tons balaenopterid. The actual animal was actually around 20. But there are not many superpredators that had 20 tons prey-items in the records. Wait, so by 'never encountering a 25M whale' do you mean they did not coexist with them, or that they did not hunt them? If it is the former, would that mean that macropredators like Megalodon and Livyatan were the largest creatures in the seas at that time?
On prey size, that is true (especially for a solo hunter) and certainly Shastasaurus did not.
He means they coexisted with them, but they aren’t as big as you think.
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Post by spartan on Dec 11, 2019 1:34:10 GMT 5
How do you know it died from said attack? That’s a weird injury if it takes several weeks to kill something, long enough for the bone to get remodeled. At best, it died from an infection of the wound, or maybe it died from entirely unrelated causes. There’s a difference between an animal escaping and succumbing to blood loss half an hour later, and an animal clearly not sustaining a life-threatening injury. I draw that line between there being signs of wound healing and there being none. If the animal escapes and escapes long enough for the wound to heal, then the wound is unlikely to have been the thing that killed it. Infection from a wound caused by attempted predation counts as the predator killing it; it would not have died if not for said predator.
But that's a meaningless information then for the purposes of a fight or even predation. Infected cat bites can kill people, but doesn't mean anything in regards to a domestic cat's capability of predating on adult humans.
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Post by kekistani on Dec 11, 2019 1:34:14 GMT 5
Wait, so by 'never encountering a 25M whale' do you mean they did not coexist with them, or that they did not hunt them? If it is the former, would that mean that macropredators like Megalodon and Livyatan were the largest creatures in the seas at that time?
On prey size, that is true (especially for a solo hunter) and certainly Shastasaurus did not.
He means they coexisted with them, but they aren’t as big as you think. ...Soooo they didn't coexist with 25 meter whales then. Coulda just said that.
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Post by kekistani on Dec 11, 2019 1:36:43 GMT 5
Infection from a wound caused by attempted predation counts as the predator killing it; it would not have died if not for said predator.
But that's a meaningless information then for the purposes of a fight or even predation. Infected cat bites can kill people, but doesn't mean anything in regards to a domestic cat's capability of predating on adult humans. IK it is. The point of the link is that Megalodon would chance it with prey larger than itself, the link supporting this has been taken out of context.
Not going to argue with the cat bite to keep thread on track but the 2 are not really comparable.
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Post by theropod on Dec 11, 2019 1:41:58 GMT 5
How do you know it died from said attack? That’s a weird injury if it takes several weeks to kill something, long enough for the bone to get remodeled. At best, it died from an infection of the wound, or maybe it died from entirely unrelated causes. There’s a difference between an animal escaping and succumbing to blood loss half an hour later, and an animal clearly not sustaining a life-threatening injury. I draw that line between there being signs of wound healing and there being none. If the animal escapes and escapes long enough for the wound to heal, then the wound is unlikely to have been the thing that killed it. Infection from a wound caused by attempted predation counts as the predator killing it; it would not have died if not for said predator. And again, we do not know that. The whale could have died from a whole number of causes, only one of which is infection of the wound; perhaps it beached itself, perhaps it was killed by a predator, perhaps it died of an unrelated injury or sickness, or perhaps it was already injured or sick when the shark bit it in the first place. Trying to make it look as though you knew for sure the whale was killed by the shark bite is plain unscientific. You are confusing a possibility with a certainty.
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Post by Grey on Dec 11, 2019 2:11:58 GMT 5
There is only an apparent huge cetotherid skull in the Ocucaje that seems to belong to maybe a 20 m animal.
Meg and Livyatan may have been the largest animals in their time, except with potentially unchecked large mysticetes, but remember meg and Livyatan are already among the largest animals ever at all. Few animals have reached 50 metric tonnes in history, much less with a raptorial behavior.
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Post by Grey on Dec 11, 2019 2:20:51 GMT 5
Anyway, most bite are very infectious (human being one of the worst). A full bite and potentially others could potentially injure a whale and let if with serious infections... then other later related and unrelated causes.
The long term sequels are not indicating anything, the fact the shark (probably a young or small otodontid) did successfully bite through the thick ribs on the flank of a multi-tons whale simply demonstrates that these sharks dared to engage and injure larger prey items, and the probability for this to be a unique event is low.
This could suggest a more frontal, brutal predator than simpy an enlarged white shark would appear in predatory behavior.
Megalodon is not a large white shark, it is a shark of a lineage we have never seen that lived in a really different marine environment and climate with many large predators.
A slightly more agressive-style than Carcharodon is not unreasonable.
I should discuss this further with Brett Kent.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 11, 2019 3:47:00 GMT 5
Well Grey has a point - it's hard to predate something larger than you if you're one of the biggest animals in your environment.
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denis
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by denis on Dec 11, 2019 6:39:24 GMT 5
Infection from a wound caused by attempted predation counts as the predator killing it; it would not have died if not for said predator. And again, we do not know that. The whale could have died from a whole number of causes, only one of which is infection of the wound; perhaps it beached itself, perhaps it was killed by a predator, perhaps it died of an unrelated injury or sickness, or perhaps it was already injured or sick when the shark bit it in the first place. Trying to make it look as though you knew for sure the whale was killed by the shark bite is plain unscientific. You are confusing a possibility with a certainty. You took the words out of my mouth.
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Post by kekistani on Dec 11, 2019 9:35:34 GMT 5
Anyway, most bite are very infectious (human being one of the worst). A full bite and potentially others could potentially injure a whale and let if with serious infections... then other later related and unrelated causes. The long term sequels are not indicating anything, the fact the shark (probably a young or small otodontid) did successfully bite through the thick ribs on the flank of a multi-tons whale simply demonstrates that these sharks dared to engage and injure larger prey items, and the probability for this to be a unique event is low. This could suggest a more frontal, brutal predator than simpy an enlarged white shark would appear in predatory behavior. Megalodon is not a large white shark, it is a shark of a lineage we have never seen that lived in a really different marine environment and climate with many large predators. A slightly more agressive-style than Carcharodon is not unreasonable. I should discuss this further with Brett Kent. This here summarizes the point well
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Post by theropod on Dec 11, 2019 12:11:00 GMT 5
And again, we do not know that. The whale could have died from a whole number of causes, only one of which is infection of the wound; perhaps it beached itself, perhaps it was killed by a predator, perhaps it died of an unrelated injury or sickness, or perhaps it was already injured or sick when the shark bit it in the first place. Trying to make it look as though you knew for sure the whale was killed by the shark bite is plain unscientific. You are confusing a possibility with a certainty. You took the words out of my mouth. Honestly, I very much doubt it, I have a hard time imagining you having even read the relevant paper.
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Post by Life on Dec 11, 2019 14:53:33 GMT 5
Err what? The whale survived for at least several weeks following that attack… Two weeks only. Encounter with juvenile Meg proved fatal for the whale eventually. Adult Megalodon would have torn this whale apart in a short span. Sheer power of Megalodon make it virtually impractical to find evidence of a prey which managed to escape alive - very high percentage of success much like African wild dogs.
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Post by creature386 on Dec 11, 2019 15:08:29 GMT 5
And again, we do not know that. The whale could have died from a whole number of causes, only one of which is infection of the wound; perhaps it beached itself, perhaps it was killed by a predator, perhaps it died of an unrelated injury or sickness, or perhaps it was already injured or sick when the shark bit it in the first place. Trying to make it look as though you knew for sure the whale was killed by the shark bite is plain unscientific. You are confusing a possibility with a certainty. You took the words out of my mouth. I thought you believed the wound was the result of scavenging (despite the wound showing signs of healing). Or doesn't it matter what hypothesis as right as long as the result is along the lines of "Megalodon didn't kill that whale"?
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denis
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by denis on Dec 11, 2019 15:54:59 GMT 5
You took the words out of my mouth. Honestly, I very much doubt it, I have a hard time imagining you having even read the relevant paper. I believed the whale couldn’t die from the shark, it would be unlikely for a juvenile Megalodon to kill a whale much larger than it.
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denis
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by denis on Dec 11, 2019 15:56:21 GMT 5
You took the words out of my mouth. I thought you believed the wound was the result of scavenging (despite the wound showing signs of healing). Or doesn't it matter what hypothesis as right as long as the result is along the lines of "Megalodon didn't kill that whale"? Both I guess. But what’s the estimated size of the whale.
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